People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

I'm not asking you to justify yourself at all I just wondered if you consider Jess Bradley to be one of your trans sisters.

It's a pretty simple question. Because it's people like Jess that the umbrella definition now covers.

I read the OP and was just affirming there are women that are supportive :)

Yes we are all perfectly aware that there have always been and always will be women who choose to throw other women under the bus for whatever personal reason.

Cool tactic, Doggo. Make an unsupported
and controversial assertion and then refuse to explain further. Appropriate username too. Very sensible in this heat. Even my cats are Doggo.

Didn't realize being a middle class mum was required. Someone should tell me these things!

Whenever I read the words ‘trans sister’ I get this as an ear worm:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=HuhlOlLHs58

Damn my high-camp brain.

I explained the concept of "cool girls" to a bunch of young women recently. They were very pleased to know that what they'd witnessed - and resented - had an actual label.

2 June 2018 "As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked"
(extract)
"Prison reformer Frances Crook said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform , added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

‘Moreover, the process is inherently discriminatory. A woman identifying as a man could not be transferred to a man’s jail because placing a person with female attributes into a prison to live with 1,000 men, all using communal showers and living areas, would put them in serious danger.’ "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

18 July 2018 "Transgender inmate charged with sex offences at Wakefield jail"

"A transgender prisoner has been charged with committing four sexual offences against inmates at a women's jail in West Yorkshire.

Karen White, 51, is accused of four counts of sexual touching at New Hall Prison, Wakefield.

The offences are alleged to have taken place between September and November last year.

She appeared before magistrates earlier this month and is due to appear at Leeds Crown Court in August.

Ms White, who was born male but now identifies as a woman, has since been moved to a male prison.

Ministry of Justice (MoJ) guidance says in the "great majority" of cases transgender prisoners are allowed to "experience the system" in the gender in which they identify."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-44877856

Didn't realize being a middle class mum was required. Someone should tell me these things!

It's a pathetic attempt at belittling others.
P.s not a mum not middle class. Am I barred from discussion now?

maybe that's because I do move in LGBTQ circles more than 'middle class mummy' circles.

You middle class mums, just don't fully understand the many benefits of the lady dick like I do. Lol.

What amuses me is that this person honestly thinks that "you're just a mum" will work as an insult on a site primarily aimed at mums.

Misogyny is a hell of a drug.

" Misogyny is a hell of a drug. "

isn't it just?

'oh you are all wrong because you are middle class mummies (*NB the nice little attempt at belittlement by using a child's word), unlike me because I am really RIGHT ON.

Fool.

As if we are all mums anyway - or middle class.

Almost as if they don't actually know anything about MN.

FloralBunting Mon 06-Aug-18 17:55:00
"Some people have a gender identity, some don't. Some conform to gender stereotypes, some subvert them entirely. GC feminists believe everyone should be able to present themselves to the world however they feel most content. Have at it.

But we do not have rights reserved or safe spaces based on gender. There would be no purpose in that, because sex based rights and protections are all fundamentally based in our female biology and the disadvantages we face because of it.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions."

That's not the general understanding of gender though. Perhaps it is YOUR individual ideological stance. Everyone has a gender. In most people, gender is congruent and matching with their biological sex. However, in 1 of 600 it is not. (And even biological sex is more nuanced than that - as evidenced by 1-1500 intersex individuals).

I understand your position (though I disagree with it). You want to establish rights to spaces based on biological sex rather than gender. Ok,, that's your position.

However, saying there would be no purpose in segregating spaces by gender is flawed logic. There would be the same purpose as segregating by biological sex - to keep women safe.

The one aspect in which we disagree is that in your view, trans women are not women, therefore would not be allowed in women's spaces - leaving trans women to fend for themselves in men's spaces, thus exposing them not only to the same dangers you're trying to keep other women safe from - but also to the additional dangers of violence from transphobic men who would be quite likely to beat up a trans woman in a male bathroom.

My position is that allowing trans women into women's spaces -
a) makes sense, because trans women are women;
b) keep trans women safe from attack and/or harassment from men;
c) is a non-issue, as there has not been a problem of trans women attacking women (And yes, I'm aware of the Ayrton news clipping. There are over 2 Million trans women in the world. What I mean is, there hasn't been any noticeable trend or common problem to this effect.)

Anybody who wants the dismantle female only spaces is saying a big 'we don't believe you' to every woman and girl that's been harassed, assaulted or raped by a male person.

I didn’t say there was no purpose in swapping out sex for gender - I said it was unworkable according to the stonewall definition of transgender - NHS wards and Prisons work on a binary (as sex does) and gender does not - there are a myriad of genders now!

Once again, for reference, the stonewall definition:

No, cassie, that is YOUR interpretation of gender.

Mine is the original feminist analysis of gender, which is that it is a hierarchical means of oppression based on sex role stereotypes.

This is a feminist board. Many more posters here (probably most of them) share the understanding of gender that I have. The feminist one came first, and many, many feminists see no need to update it, particuarly not in this manner, where sex role stereotypes are solidified and reified, with the sole change being that males can now choose to adopt aspects of them.

I do not have a gender identity. I am a woman, though.

That's not the general understanding of gender though. Perhaps it is YOUR individual ideological stance. Everyone has a gender. In most people, gender is congruent and matching with their biological sex.

Cassie, this is quite clearly YOUR individual ideological stance.

I don't have a gender. I don't believe in gender other than as sex role stereotypes. My sex is female, that is all.

Nah, not everyone has a gender identity. Everyone has a sex though, and it can't be changed.

cassie how can you say everyone has a gender unless you mean gender = personality. I am not the same as anyone else, and I have no desire to be labelled as the same as anyone else.

Gender is just a way of society forcing conformance on people, which is why I reject gender ideology - it's regressive and damaging.

If you insist I have a gender then it's 'lurker33'. If you say it's anything else then you're invalidating my identity

I'm not sure service providers will be able to provide gender segregated spaces on that basis . Sex segregation makes much more sense.

Of the transwomen in prison here, about 50% are sex offenders. This is a very high percentage. I think it's 15% of all male prisoners are sex offenders but someone else is bound to know for sure.

CassieBrighter, there's plenty of evidence. You can say it never happens all you like. The facts contradict you. And these are only cases where a jail sentence was the outcome.

Because the world isn't like this little corner of Mumsnet. Thank goodness.