People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

The men I know don't think TWAW either, bringincrazyback. But they're far more blunt about it than we are here. Far more.

I looked everywhere for my gender identity, too - was it hiding in my pre-frontal cortex, playing peek-a-boo in my amygdala, tucked behind my kidneys, down the back of the sofa...? Nope, nowhere to be found - just like my soul is nowhere to be found. Because they're faith based beliefs, not biological facts.

I'm treated as I am as a woman based on the perception of my reproductive ability and notions of what that means about all of my other abilities.

(and FWIW, before you go down that road, I'm infertile following hysterectomy and years of gynae problems so I do not now, and never actually had any reproductive ability. The point is, I am of the sex class that generally does).

"My position is that allowing trans women into women's spaces -
a) makes sense, because trans women are women;
b) keep trans women safe from attack and/or harassment from men;
c) is a non-issue, as there has not been a problem of trans women attacking women"

CassieBrighter , have you genuinely not read and understood the objections to this, or are you one of those people who doesn't care?

Under self-id, 'trans' includes a massive range of people, who need not even look remotely like 'women' to claim they are women. They can be in full possession of all their original genitalia, not have taken a single hormone - not even have grown their hair or shaved their beards off.

Our point is that allowing self-id makes women's spaces open to any man who claims they are trans under the Stonewall umbrella description (NB Mumsnet - I am not suggesting in the slightest that genuine transwomen are predatory, I'm suggesting that they will be under as much threat by the men pretending to be or who are simply using the cover of self-id to enter women's spaces).

how many many women need to be attacked by transwomen before it's a problem for you? ... For me the answer is 1. How about you Cassie?

Well if we apply that logic, quite a few women have been attacked by women, in public toilets, but also at home, and in the street.

If one attack is too many, would you stop women using women's toilets, and being in streets and houses too?
I'm guessing no men should ever be allowed in a domestic setting either, because one attack is too many?

RaindropsOnKittens43

So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?

Perhaps others arrange their households differently, but the males who're in my domestic setting are well known to me and not strangers. Males I may encounter in public toilets, changing areas, etc not so much!

"Let's not have any laws and restrictions to protect anyone, people will only break them!" Killer logic there.

It's getting to the point were the only reason to have women's facilities is to validate transpeople s gender identity.

Cassie, lots and lots of posters here do not have a gender identity. The GC view is that the gender system is a regressive box that stuffs people in boxes based on stereotypes than almost no one actually fits.

I appreciate that you believe very strongly in gender, but, as a religious person myself, I understand that you cannot reasonably expect everyone around you to accept your belief system.

There are many situations where women have won rights and protections which are sex based and not gender based.

Sport is sex differentiated because men and women are physically different and z male body has significant advantages over a female body.

Certain places are sex separated because women, by virtue of their sex, are generally smaller, weaker and, being possession of a vagina, vulnerable to rape and possible pregnancy.

Women face discrimination at work because of their sex - because they are perceived to be the main carer for children, because they are the sex which bears children (even if they never do, or never intend to, they are judged by their childbearing capacity and often held back)

There exist political women's shortlists because women face this endemic disadvantage because of their biological sex.

None of this is because they feel like women. It is because they are women, whether they like it or not, due to their biology.

This is not about toilets. This is about saying, yes, transwomen are as entitled to everyone else to be safe. The gender binary is a horrid system and I will work with you to dismantle it.

But these sex separations exist for a sex based reason, and I will not sacrifice the rights and safety of my sisters to do what will only reinforce the gender binary.

RaindropsOnKittens43
"So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?"

A. Yes, it does matter. (Whatever gave you the idea that it doesn't?)
B. Here's what we can do to prevent it: Men (not trans women) should not be allowed in women-only spaces.

We sex segregate when people are naked or otherwise vulnerable because most people prefer it for privacy and dignity. For women and girls, safety is also key. Males commit 98% of sex crime and there is no evidence that transition affects this. Anyone with a penis has no place in women only spaces.

But transwomen are men Cassie. How do we tell the difference?

ReluctantCamper Mon 06-Aug-18 19:13:47
"ah. women do it too. that old chestnut."

To whom is this replying? I most certainly never voiced such a position.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Mon 06-Aug-18 19:16:03
"We sex segregate when people are naked or otherwise vulnerable because most people prefer it for privacy and dignity. For women and girls, safety is also key. Males commit 98% of sex crime and there is no evidence that transition affects this. Anyone with a penis has no place in women only spaces."

I entirely agree with your position on MEN. I agree that they commit 98% of sex crimes and I believe segregating in vulnerable spaces is good.

I disagree with you in that I consider that trans women are not men.

RaindropsOnKittens43

So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?
That is nothing like what I said, I just applied your logic, which was that one attack is too many, to the rest of society. We protect people by having laws against attacking one another, no one has suggested repealing this laws. But if you apply a rule to the trans community that you'd consider an overreaction if it was applied to women, or even men, then that's not a rational reaction to a problem, it's hatred.

CassieBrighter Do you believe that humans can change sex?

ReluctantCamper Mon 06-Aug-18 19:16:19
"But transwomen are men Cassie. How do we tell the difference?"

No ReluctantCamper, that's not the case. Men are men. Trans men are men. Cis men are men. Gay men are men. Straight men are men. Trans women are not.

Is Mumsnet entirely run by GC ideologues?
Is there no room for a different point of view?

CassieBrighter. Are you namechanging? Why are you answering posts addressed to other people without reading their posts?

no RaindropsOnKittens43, just apply the same rules to Transwomen that are applied to all other men

I disagree with you in that I consider that trans women are not men.

Do you include all the ones that Stonewall do in your category?

And if yes, does that mean you're entirely happy with people with penises in gym changing rooms, women's refuges, women's prisons, women's wards etc?

Certainly you can express your point of view, Cassie, it's just that nobody is obliged to agree with you.

What do transwomen have in common with women, that they do not have in common with men, Cassie?

I’m confused.

Men are men

yes

do you believe that humans can change sex?

that old chestnut

That old MRA chestnut. The congruence of canards arguments becomes more striking by the day.