People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

It's biological sex that matters as well as the fact that in UK 80% of trans women retain fully intact male genitalia.

It's much more than that. It's a tiny percentage who have had genital surgery. Virtually all have their penis. Allegedly 20% want to have the surgery at some point.

"Well, I used to be fully in favour when I thought we were just talking about transsexuals; people with gender dysphoria who'd socially, medically and surgically transitioned and looked like women (or as near as they could)."

What do you think people mean nowadays?

At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.

It's not about not having trans people "near you". It's about respecting women's boundaries around male people in female spaces where women need privacy and dignity.

Cassie round here we tend to go with the Stonewall definition of transgender-

Bingpot Sun 05-Aug-18 18:11:17
"The title of this isn't great. It's not that we don't 'support' trans people or are anti-trans. It's a little dangerous to frame it that way.

It's about protecting women's rights to single sex spaces and protecting their dignity, safety and privacy."

At the heart of this debate is the notion that biological sex is the one governing factor, vs the notion that gender and biological sex are two separate things.

A lot of people consider that trans women ARE indeed a type of women, and therefore when you're defending THEIR right to women's spaces you're defending women's spaces.

But if your understanding of a trans woman is that she's a man, then of course you'd feel aggrieved at the notion.

I just want to point out that I've never come across a story of a man self-id-ing as a woman for the sake of preying on women. Men who do that - they do it without any such tactic.

cassie, you said ^My point is that the transition takes years. At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.
(In your case, I'm guessing it's never.)^

What do you mean "someone acceptable to have near you"? Did you actually read my post or did you just assume 'transphobe'?

I'm happy to have transwomen or Transmen near me ffs.

I'm not happy having a transwoman in a space reserved for women in the same way I wouldn't want any other man in that space. I wouldn't invite my husband, father etc in a woman's space because it would make other women uncomfortable.

A lot of people consider that trans women ARE indeed a type of women, and therefore when you're defending THEIR right to women's spaces you're defending women's spaces.

And a lot of people don't. Even the ones that do, as you have observed, are expecting a particular kind of trans person.

Gender being in somebody's brain.
Trans women are the unfortunate ones whose gender and biological sex is out of alignment.

I don't see why that should cause women to lose sex segregated spaces.

I really don’t understand how Transwomen are a type of women, as opposed to being a type of man?

We can’t start reclassifying people on gender instead of sex because of all the variants of gender identity (see my post re: Stonewall above). It’s not going to be possible to offer say, NHS wards or prisons, for each seperate gender.

Plus some of us have no gender at all...

I must be honest, I was trying to explain my objections to self ID to a younger friend and she just shook her head and laughed at me. Her mate was the same, and she is a school teacher.

Cassie Brighter, in your blog post What Do We Do About Women With A Penis? you pose a question (Trans women are women) with 3 alternative replies. If, as gender critical feminists do, we choose option B - that transwomen are male, your response to that option is:

We will not agree on much. You will probably hate my stories. So honey, let's do each other a favor. Skip my article. Go read your favorite Germaine Greer invective. And let's leave each other be.

You want gender critical feminists to leave you alone. And yet you turn up here on the FWR board. I'm baffled. How come you're not taking your own advice?

T**F is prohibited here, btw.

Her mate was the same, and she is a school teacher.

It was school teacher on here, bending over backwards to accommodate a transchildren at the expense of girls, that made me see how crucial this is.

oh yes they will do, they have their instructions from above...in fact it was quite scary, the way she dismissed me..

Cassie, you said that the difference between us is that GC people believe biological sex is the only factor, while the transactivists believe that gender and biological sex are separate things.

I think you're labouring under a misapprehension, because that's not the case at all. We both of us, GC people and Transactivists alike, believe that sex and gender are two separate different things.

We GC feminists believe certain rights and safe spaces have been won for women on the basis of their female sex.

Some people have a gender identity, some don't. Some conform to gender stereotypes, some subvert them entirely. GC feminists believe everyone should be able to present themselves to the world however they feel most content. Have at it.

But we do not have rights reserved or safe spaces based on gender. There would be no purpose in that, because sex based rights and protections are all fundamentally based in our female biology and the disadvantages we face because of it.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions.

I'm a feminist and I support my trans sisters. I am involved in the LGBTQ community and I don't feel I have to decide between being a trans ally and a feminist.

I am in the 75% and always will be.

A lot of feminists seem to take offence to this rather than accepting my beliefs and try to tell me I can't be a real feminist. My trans sister never tell me I can't be a feminist and an ally to them.

Doggo1

Do you consider Jess Bradley to be one of your trans sisters?

When I want someone/a group of people to leave me alone I generally don't actively seek out the people in question and try my best to entice them to engage with me.

Yep^ starts straight away.

I won't be answering any questions. Like I said. I read the OP and was just affirming there are women that are supportive :)

I just want to point out that I've never come across a story of a man self-id-ing as a woman for the sake of preying on women. Men who do that - they do it without any such tactic.

Do you not read newspapers then? Do you really think Ian Huntley (the Soham murderer) has just realised he's really a women trapped in a mans body, or do you think he's doing it so he can transfer to a women's prison.

Mind you I guess you wouldn't think anyone would train to become an accredited youth football coach in order to abuse boys would you....?

Safeguarding is there for a reason.

cassie what do people think we mean now? Well they think you mean ‘women with penises’ ie fully intact biological males. Transsexuals have had surgery. That’s why people talk about pre and post op. Transsexuals have gender dysphoria. This requirement is being removed and a broad range of other individuals are identifying as trans while retaining all signs of being male. And no, hormones do not magically make a penis non-threatening. If you were born and raised male, you would never ever understand and to you it seems unimportant but it’s totally different for many women due to their experiences.

I don't feel I have to decide between being a trans ally and a feminist.

so don't then.

" maybe that's because I do move in LGBTQ circles more than 'middle class mummy' circles."

I have never moved in 'middle class mummy circles' don't be so silly.

I bet you think you are all cool and stuff, accepting men with dicks as your "sisters".

Honestly doggo, wake up.

Actually am hiding this thread as I refuse to get drawn in but like I said I was just popping in to affirm the Ops query about trans supporters. We are here and we do care about our trans sisters rights and I will continue to do all I can to help them feel welcome.