People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

but I’m no longer cavalier about giving away hard won rights for women more vulnerable than I am

I don't understand this [like, ever].

Why should we be cavalier about women who are less vulnerable? Or just as vulnerable? Or not vulnerable at all?

You do not have to be vulnerable to be attacked by a man. If we are saying that only vulnerable people need to be protected, what we do then is put all the rest of the women up for grabs - thus putting more women at risk and therefore increasing the number of women being attacked and who then turn into vulnerable women.

It is a conundrum for sure.
The vast majority of people oppose mixed sex facilities but support trans rights.
Could there be a misunderstanding here?
Survey says: YES!

@yokatsu Most Single sex spaces are not a hard won right for women, they were something enforced on woman by a patriarchal society.

Single-sex toilets were fought for by women so that we were not on the "bladder leash" and could go out for long periods in public. Refuges and Rape Crisis were created by women as female-only spaces. Women in refugee camps request sex-segregated toilets and washing facilities because they are raped using mixed loos. We need female-only spaces to survive and thrive.

Im totally at a loss why we are so desperate to hang onto them.

I can tell that you've never been raped, sexually assaulted, or flashed at. Had my primary school had single-sex changing rooms, I would not have been sexually assaulted aged eight. Having been woken up in the night by a man raping me once already, I would not want to share a youth hostel room or prison cell with a man because I would be scared that it would happen again. Men commit the majority of sexual assaults and women are the majority of victims, and only male-on-female rape can lead to pregnancy. It makes sense therefore to separate the sexes in some high-risk circumstances.

When it comes to Self ID, I'd be surprised if 1 in a thousand was actually aware of what's being considered and the issues it raises. I thought it was maybe 1 in a hundred, but have reconsidered after discussing it with family members.

I agree, Prawn. In fact I can safely say that if I wasn’t on here, I’d be one of the 1000.
It’s terrifying, what’s happening in plain sight yet going largely unnoticed.

I guess with Hayley as well, she was played by a woman, and not even a masculine looking woman, so of course people didn’t need a lot of persuasion to accept that she was a ‘real’ woman. Imagine if Hayley instead looked like Jane Fae for instance. Would everyone have been so dead cert that Hayley was a real woman then?

Also, Hayley Cropper was an absolute saint of a person. And fictional, of course.

Leyat has given a complete explanation and thorough answer to your question op. Would you agree?

I don’t know, a lot of women at my dds school are very pro trans but I really don’t think the understand the true impact and basically think it’s all about fucking toilets a few of them challenged me on my facebook posts and stated pulling up bullshit about men being attacked just as much as women - it was really fucking bizzare !

Yes to Haley bloody Cropper

How do I hide these vile posts from my feed?

Click on ‘hide thread’?

I do understand, I was wondering why so many people support this.
I was wondering lack of info or something else.

I wasn't being goady either.

@Lowpain. What's horrible and vile about this thread?

Hayley Cropper:
(Wiki)
"Transgender groups were also largely unhappy with the storyline, and found Hayley's original character traits, as written, cliched and ill-informed. Press for Change, the transgender campaign and information group, were particularly concerned with the direction of the storyline, but after the first two months a trans advisor connected to Press for Change, Annie Wallace, was regularly consulted for eighteen months by scriptwriters and the actor, and trans groups appeared happier with the stories and scripts that resulted from this liaison. In an interview with Hesmondhalgh in August 2015, it was revealed that in tribute to Wallace, the writers gave Hayley's middle name as Anne, and gave her the same birthday, as well as a mutual love for rock music, especially Queen (band).[14] Wallace is now an actress in her own right, and appears as the character Sally St. Claire in the Channel 4 soap opera, Hollyoaks.

Transgender campaigners were initially upset that a cisgender woman had been chosen for the part but later praised Hesmondhalgh's dedication and sensitivity. Hayley was, for many viewers, the first transgender woman whose story they had seen unfold on TV. Hesmondhalgh has become an outspoken activist for trans rights, including becoming the first Friend of campaign group Trans Media Watch[15] and as Hayley, she has heralded a new level of acceptance among people across the country.[16] The official LGBT History Month website includes Hayley as one of the important famous LGBT people in their history, even though she is a fictional character"

My answer to this depends on what definition of transwoman is being used tbh. ost operative transsexuals (who I expect most people think of when hearing 'transwoman') I have no issue with using female spaces (though prisons and such..is a lot more difficult)

I still think the majority of he public think transgender means transsexual. I have noticed an influx of TRAs claiming they mean the same too, recently.

Also a lot of people seem to think a transwoman is a transman, and vice versa. Have had a few people saying 'why on earth wouldnt transowmen be wecome in womens changing rooms, they are female who just want to dress like men!' and such. Language is a bit confusing, possibly purposely.

Please think about a transgender woman - that is a man
who has gone through all or part of a process to become a
woman. How comfortable or uncomfortable would you be for a
transgender woman to use female public toilets?

I wonder also what most would consider 'part of a process'?

Guidance from 'Press for Change: The UKs leading experts in Transgender Law'

The Explanatory Notes to the Act make it quite clear that 'gender reassignment' is to be considered a social process and not a medical process.

As such, the act protects anyone who is Intending to undergo, is undergoing, or has undergone gender reassignment even if they have not had or do not intend to have any medical gender reassignment treatments.

Initially the European Court of Justice used the phrase “intending to undergo, undergoing or having undergone gender reassignment” but s. 82 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 (as amended) now states that this refers to those people intending to transition, or who have transitioned to living permanently in the new gender role ‘under medical supervision’. Medical supervision is as little as going to the doctor and saying "I wish to undergo gender reassignment treatment, please could you refer me to be put on the waiting list for a clinical assessment”.

With the Equality Act 2010 under medical Supervision has been removed and is no longer required.

As such it is possible to say that “intending to undergo, undergoing or having undergone gender reassignment” now means in UK law; “intending to live permanently, or is already living permanently in the new gender role.”
www.pfc.org.uk/Equality.html

I would suspect that it would more accurately be:

72% of females support transsexual women using female facilities and services

Even amongst GC MNers, I suspect a majority would support this (though I appreciate many don't), apart from certain specific areas; like all women shortlists and women's sport.

I think an overwhelming majority of people would have an issue with self ID in its most extreme proposed form.

As many PPs have said, the broader implications of 'I am whatever I say I am' style self ID go a lot further than toilets.

My answer to this depends on what definition of transwoman is being used tbh. ost operative transsexuals (who I expect most people think of when hearing 'transwoman') I have no issue with using female spaces (though prisons and such..is a lot more difficult)

I still think the majority of he public think transgender means transsexual.
This ^^

I support post op transwomen using female spaces (but not accessing female sports categories etc).
I don't support any self IDing individual with a penis identifying their way into my sex segregated space.

I will support the rights of trans people to live free from persecution and discrimination. I will not accept women's rights being eroded to appease a very loud and aggressive bunch of TRAs who seek to silence women.

It all depends on what people understand by 'trans.

I think most people on this board are actually pro trans-people. Just anti trans-activists - the ones who demand open access to everything female in a very aggressive manner.

Quite frankly, the burden of proof is on the people who wish to change the systems that safeguard women and girls.
When you convince me that your system - which relies purely on an internal declaration of identity that by your own definition is fluid - is better than what we have now, then I will agree to accept self-ID.

But we are nowhere near that, and in fact the more I think about it, the more I learn about trans activism, the less I think it's a good idea.

Bring back the transsexuals who just wanted to live quiet lives, and let's talk about the most difficult subjects (prisons/refuges/health care/etc).

Quite frankly, I've had enough of grown trans/non-binary males causing a huge fuss and acting in a threatening way because they find being asked to use the men's changing room a gross human rights violation... I mean, I am sorry about their hurt feelings, but... Where is the perspective and common sense here?

Is our society so without trouble that complaining about sensible single-sex policies - put in place to protect women and girls - is now the kind of "political activism" that gets lauded by the media?

Personally I have no problem with sharing certain spaces with transsexuals (toilets being an obvious one that I don't really care too much about). But there is an enormous conceptual difference to saying we should think carefully about exceptions to our rules of single-sex facilities, and saying we should rid ourselves of any rule-book altogether.

I'm afraid I'm also under the impression that most people think "transgender" = "post op transsexual" and I suspect they will have answered on that basis.

It would be interesting if we could conduct a nationwide survey somehow, to see what people understand by the term "transgender".

Making men's loos mixed sex but leaving female as single sex would be an option.
This is a brilliant idea and a good talking point. In practice, women would not choose to use the gents (huge queues notwithstanding). Men would be at no extra risk. The gents could be redesignated as unisex and the women's could stay single-sex. Imagine the convoluted logic needed to argue against that.

Turph, I think men would say that women will come in there to get a look at their junk.

in fairness, I wouldn't blame them if they used that to argue against it.

in fairness, I wouldn't blame them if they used that to argue against it.
Exactly. That's why it's the perfect counterargument. It's not discriminatory, either.