People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

"72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities. "

I'd be interested in knowing how many MEN would support transwomen using female facilities, on a self ID basis.

I'm guessing many would pause at that...

WANDER so the women asked are stupid? Are they ignorant of a widely known and spoken about topic?

it's not stupidity, but the people I have spoken to don't really know much about this issue, no. I have no reason to doubt they are atypical.

I just want to say this is a sky documentary and looking through all the threads it looks like it might have already been discussed.

I support trans people using facilities, however I'm on the edge on self ID.

"Most Single sex spaces are not a hard won right for women, they were something enforced on woman by a patriarchal society. Im totally at a loss why we are so desperate to hang onto them.

Except with regard to refuges. But they are getting lost in the ridiculous argument of toilets"

We had to fight for toilets!

Around the world this fight still goes on.

There is a whole exhibition at the museum of london at the moment about it here.

I'm not sure what single sex things were imposed by a patriacrchal society on women in the UK?
We have had to fight very very hard for women's sports as well.
Refuges obv.
Single sex hosp wards are supported by both sexes generally and the idea of a mixed prison is unconscionable IMO (although there was a suggestion some years ago that they be mixed to calm down the male prisoners can't remember where I read that, it never got off the ground thankfully!).

From the museum blurb:

"Lack of access to toilets effectively tied women to their homes, putting them on a leash as long as their bladder capacity. Even when London's first public toilets were built for the 1851 Great Exhibition, the prevailing modesty of Victorian society assumed women would be too embarrassed to be seen entering them."

Pinky but in that case why have sex segregation at all? I mean what is the difference between a male bodied person who feels female and a male bodied person who feels male?

Also sex is not the same as the other protected characteristics. Male and female bodies are different in terms of strength and in terms of the risk of violation of one body by the other. The same is not true for race or sexual orientation. In the case of sports, there are clear reasons why segregation is necessary.

If you’re happy to share spaces with Male bodies, be my guest but it is not bigoted to wish to preserve a separate space for women especially given the high rates of violence and sexual assaults that women suffer in mixed spaces.

Yolatsu what bull. Please back it up. Women across the world are abused, harassed and raped, almost exclusively by men. Wanting to have one small corner of the world with no male bodies is really not asking the world.
Why is a trans woman allowed to say she doesn’t want to share with (other) penises but when a natal woman says the same it is bigotry? Why do women’s feelings not matter at all in this but trans women’s are determinative?

Wanting to have one small corner of the world with no male bodies is really not asking the world.

It isn't - but outside of toilets - why shouldn't women have women only spaces anyway?

Sometimes it is just nice to speak to other women without being harassed/monitored/overheard/threatened or just having to pander to men and their inane bullshit.

Those stats are from the British Social Attitudes Survey, the question was: Please think about a transgender woman - that is a man
who has gone through all or part of a process to become a
woman. How comfortable or uncomfortable would you be for a
transgender woman to use female public toilets?

But when people are polled re self ID/the GRA proposals, which is representative, they are 75% - 82% against (across three polls now, two Panelbase, one YouGov), so it suggests that when people are able to connect the dots when asked regarding a set of proposals that would clearly impact on women and girls, they are against it.

WANDER so the women asked are stupid? Are they ignorant of a widely known and spoken about topic?

Loads of my freinds dont know about this subject

It doesnt make them stupid thank you very much

it's not stupidity, but the people I have spoken to don't really know much about this issue, no. I have no reason to doubt they are atypical.

Exactly. The vast majority of people think a transwoman is someone who has had their bits removed. This isn't stupidity it's a perfectly reasonable assumption- it's just not true and becoming less and less so.

I don’t really care about sharing toilets with transwomen either, personally, but I’m no longer cavalier about giving away hard won rights for women more vulnerable than I am.

For instance, a transwoman in my local women’s gym probably won’t freak me out too much, but if they do I can go used the mixed facility across the hall. My Islamic friends won’t have that option - they’ll cancel their memberships.

It’s the only women-only gym facility in our borough, and it exists in order to facilitate Muslim members (it’s run by the council, who have participation targets to meet). If Muslim women stop using it, it will cease to exist.

So, my personal comfort is neither here nor there. You can be both personally comfortable AND opposed.

WANDER so the women asked are stupid? Are they ignorant of a widely known and spoken about topic?

I am not stupid but I have a very different view now than I did in the past. Also, it's not really about toilets, but about women's right to sex-segregation where they need/want it. I think there should be safe and separate spaces for trans people too and unisex spaces if people want to use them. But don't call women bigots for not wanting to share a hostel room with a pre-op trans woman when they spend most of their lives struggling against male violence.

I wouldn't have an issue if a group of black people wanted to have their own space or organisation or awards. I would not demand to be let in as a white person. If I was disabled, I would not insist I join on the basis that even though I am white, I am disabled and therefore more oppressed than black people. Why should it be different for women?

Most Single sex spaces are not a hard won right for women, they were something enforced on woman by a patriarchal society.

Err, no. We are lucky in this country to have women's toilets. The same can't be said of developing countries, something the UN is taking very seriously:

news.un.org/en/story/2014/11/484042-ensuring-womens-access-safe-toilets-moral-imperative-says-ban-marking-world-day

And it is only recently that there has been a push for single sex hospital wards in the UK, which has been generally seen as a very positive step.

Without sex separation there would not be any women's sport because of the physical differences between men and women.

All women shortlists are there to correct the historical imbalance between men and women in Parliament.

Can you identify what single sex spaces for women were imposed by patriarchy? Seems to me most of them are spaces reserved only for men (parliament until 20th century, many workplaces, the Masons, various golf clubs etc etc....) I don't think patriarchy much cares for women gathering together in single sex spaces. Which is why many women want to preserve them.

It would be better to make the men's loo unisex so that women would have the option to act as human shield for men who are afraid of men.
Unless the goal is to drive women out of the public sphere in which case using transgender advocacy to do so is working as intended.

personally, but I’m no longer cavalier about giving away hard won rights for women more vulnerable than I am

This. It infuriates me that other women would so easily give away women's rights, they aren't yours to give away and by doing so you are actively removing other women's ability to engage in public life.

Thank you janni

i support trans people using facilities, however I'm on the edge on self ID.

Same here really

The attitude of "it doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else" really annoys the hell out of me. How selfish and uncaring of others can you get?!

It would be better to make the men's loo unisex

I don't quite understand your post. Are you saying that women should get a single sex space but not men? If it is what you're saying I disagree, both sexes deserve privacy and dignity.

Mind you, some of the more lib-femmy ones just stick their fingers in their ears

It's not just the lib-femmy ones. It's also the social justice warriors and those competing in the Woke Olympics.

The attitude of "it doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else" really annoys the hell out of me. How selfish and uncaring of others can you get?!

YY, personally I actually don't mind mixed toilets, for example. But I listen to other people's concerns and I hear them and I understand that my feelings are not the end of it. I understand that other people have real and genuine concerns. Just because I'm OK with it personally does not mean I dismiss those concerns.

no I don’t believe anyone should have the right to deny access to a person based on a protected characteristic

No one has ever suggested removing access to toilets for trans-people ffs. But no one has the right to demand access to facilities designed for the opposite sex just because they feel like it.

The attitude of "it doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else" really annoys the hell out of me. How selfish and uncaring of others can you get

Yep

No one has ever suggested removing access to toilets for trans-people ffs. But no one has the right to demand access to facilities designed for the opposite sex just because they feel like it.

Exactly. I mean, as a woman, I fall under a protected characteristic (sex). Can I demand to park in disabled spaces? I am guessing not. Having a protected characteristic doesn't make you entitled to use the facilities designed for another group with a protected characteristic.

I'm always so delighted when people are incredibly generous with someone else's rights.
I get a nice warm glow in the same way you do when you're at a restaurant and the woman on the table next to you gives your dinner to their mate because she has already eaten.