Can Men Be Feminists?

[Yambabe]

Musing. While I've always been on the side of equality and rights for women I don't think, in the past, I would have called myself a feminist.

I'm now starting to do a little more background reading about history and feminist theories, but only really started and don't have the knowledge that I know some of you all do.

The more I read the more interesting it get though, and the more I realise that there is no one-size-fits-all definition of feminism. The basic premise seems to be that society treats men as superior to women, women are oppressed by patriarchy and that feminism exists in all its various forms to try and lift that oppression and attain true equality for women.

So with that in mind, is feminism something that only women can truly understand or is it something that can be open to anyone who understands the premise? There are undoubtedly some men who empathise with the theories and aims of feminism but are they feminists or just supporters?

Not sure where I'm going with this, just curious to see how others view it I think. Also happy to take on board any reading recommendations (although I have already found the other sections of FWR to be a great resource).

I'm genuinely unsure of this myself. DP, DD1 and I were talking about feminism the other night and DP asked if men could be feminists. Instinctively, in unison, Dd1 said yes, and I said no.

My gut reaction was that a man could support feminism as an idea and an ideal, but to claim the label of 'feminist' seemed to me a bit white-knightish, a man steeped in the privilege of Patriarchy who would undoubtedly enjoy a certain amount of further privilege as a rescuing member of the feminist group.

I base this on the behaviour of so many brocialist types who call themselves feminists and then use their 'authority' to boss women around with impunity.

I'm happy to be corrected on this, though.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.

“Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for.”
― Andrea Dworkin

In answer to your question, no. Many have tried and most have failed. A shockingly large number of self declared male feminists turned out to be sexual predators.
So far in my 72 years of life I have met one man I would agree was a feminist, even though he does not call himself one.

No, I do not believe they can. The reason I say this is because to us, there are common experiences, genuine fears and such, that men cannot understand.

I only became aware of what was going on 3 months ago and it has altered my perception of a lot of things that have happened and the instinctive reaction I had to these experiences. To compare them to how a man would react, the differences between our socialisation became clear. At first my husband was all to happy to hear about it and discuss these matters. Then other stuff happened and it was boring and old news. And there in lies the problem. A woman can't ignore it and move on, as it affects her directly, a man can, just as soon as it is no longer convenient.

I actually fluctuate on this. In some ways, I think men can have feminist values, respect women, and vote for feminist causes. I think male support is important, politically, and valued.
But I don't really trust the self-ascribed "male feminists." Because many of them just seem to adopt the label as a way to mark themselves out as "not like the cr*p ones" and there's can be a weird psychological thing that tends to play out. Like they try to take over feminist spaces and speak OVER or FOR women, not WITH women - and then they want a pat on the head and a cookie for being so wonderful. There's an entitlement that comes with it, like virtue signalling. Another reason I couldn't stand with liberal feminism in its current state now.
The sexes are different. I am not going to start calling myself an activist speaking on behalf of male issues, even though I might ally with males who want to fight for better paternity leave/safer working conditions/better male prison conditions/etc.

This is going to sound really bad, but I sometimes feel more comfortable around a man with clear religious views that I can pin down, rather than some of the new "male feminists."

No.

See recent and historic "male feminists" who use that fiction to mask abuse and misogyny.

A shockingly large number of self declared male feminists turned out to be sexual predators.

And they seem to only talk, never listen. And tell women about feminism.

I had a little run in on here years ago about race and the Canadian elections. I was wrong; the poster of colour was right. It took me a little while to realise that. Because racism, like sexism, is internalised. And it must be examined honestly all the time. If I said, "I'm a Back rights champion" that would be nonsense. I try, I get it wrong a lot.

Men can say that they try, that they want to listen, that they are open to being told how to make things better. But I immediately get suspicious when they say they are feminists.

Black rights, clearly

I have never known a man who didn't at some point display:

Anger, resentment, contempt for women as a group (misogyny)

and/or

Enthusiasm about women being commoditised into exploitable, disposable units for their convenience (sexism, male entitlement)

and/or

Crass, insensitive ignorance about the impact male dominance, male violence, cultural misogyny and sexism has upon women and girls choices, decisions, life experience, realistic expectations and self-perception (male privilege)

So when a male describes himself as a feminist you get a small blast of misogyny, sexism, male entitlement and privilege in one. It makes me really uncomfortable that there are these young men claiming it. It is very arrogant. Decent men are supportive of women and girls and they work on themselves. They say things like 'I support feminism' or 'I do what I can, but i'll never really know what it's like to be a woman' etc.

So can a man be a feminist? No. But a decent and supportive person - yes.

So when a male describes himself as a feminist you get a small blast of misogyny, sexism, male entitlement and privilege in one. It makes me really uncomfortable that there are these young men claiming it. It is very arrogant. Decent men are supportive of women and girls and they work on themselves. They say things like 'I support feminism' or 'I do what I can, but i'll never really know what it's like to be a woman' etc.

Totally agree. I am wary of any man who styles himself a feminist. Men who are genuinely supportive are happy with the ally label in my experience. "Feminist" men seem to think they have an equal say in it to women. So if we are "trans exclusionary" and "SWERFs" they can pompously scold us about it and tell us we're not feministing correctly as if it's up to them.

Like others I know men who could feasibly describe themselves as feminists but they don't.

Men can hold feminist views, work towards feminist ideals, be feminist allies. But feminism is necessarily a movement led by women. If men started to lead it it would become just another method by which men control women, and if men enter it at all then they will quickly start to lead it because that is the nature of gendered power relations as currently structured.

"Feminist" men seem to think they have an equal say in it to women.

Yes exactly. They demonstrate very clearly that they don’t believe feminism is or should be a movement for women.

I think it’s part of the current backlash against feminism. Outright opposing feminism won’t sell any more - too many people like the gains it’s made for women. So instead the way to oppose it is to undermine it, to say “I’m a feminist, and actually the most feminist thing you can do is support [prostitution/porn/women in general being objectified for men’s entertainment], because [some bollocks about empowerment and agency]”.

As per above, they can be allies (and we welcome them to be so!), but they can’t be feminists.

No they can’t. And it is very presumptuous of them to declare themselves to be feminists. They can be feminist allies. But, frankly, not many are even that.

I’d love to say yes, and ten years back I think I would have. But now, I think if truly feminist men exist they are rare. I’m trying to think of men in the public eye... perhaps andy Murray and Graham lineman? Both have the same attitude that they don’t preach on behalf of women, they just point out shit behaviour. I think that’s as close as we get to Male feminism.

And I know race analogies are crap, but:

I can try my hardest to not personally be racist, I certainly hope I’m not, but as a white person I imagine I just don’t see or experience the same things as my friends of colour do. Thus I can listen to them, support them and do my best to make the world better, but I can’t expereince on that lived level what they do. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s less of an issue, I’m just able to appreciate that I dont have the experience or expertise to pronounce in it.

The best male allies are along those lines. They listen and work with us. But they can never truly experience what we do.

It’s a very interesting question. I’ll be interested to see what others think on it.

Yambabe

You are going to get a pretty biased view on here, one that's not really representative. The MN feminist boards are a haven for some serious radfem ideas, not really representative of mainstream feminism.

Feminism is broadly understood to be the belief that both sexes should have equality. On those terms there is no reason why a man can't be a feminist.

However I do agree with some previous posters that any man who loudly declares himself to be a feminist to anyone who will listen is very likely to be a closet sex pest who can't get close to women in the conventional fashion, so they try and 'slip under the radar' instead.

The 'feminist man turns out to be a rapist' is the new 'family values politician turns out to have a mistress' trope.

If men started to lead it it would become just another method by which men control women, and if men enter it at all then they will quickly start to lead it because that is the nature of gendered power relations as currently structured.

As I think we are seeing.

Oh thank goodness a man has turned up to explain to us why we’re wrong and Jen can be feminists....

*men can be feminists, obviously. I’d have no problem with a Jen being a feminist, if she was female

Potplant2

Oh thank goodness a man has turned up to explain to us why we’re wrong and Jen can be feminists...

Happy to help.

Who is Jen?

No

I think @Bowlofbabelfish has explained how I feel about this. I agree that men like Andy Murray/Graham Linehan are the nearest to a feminist you might find, who say and do things even though they might face a negative response. I'd happily call them feminist allies.

yes of course they can

Yambabe I would say that generally no, men cannot be feminists. This is based on years of activism and work in various fields and meeting men who declared themselves to be feminists who also:

Made sexist jokes/rape jokes or thought they were funny
Used porn
Were happy enough to point out misogyny in other men, but when something was discussed that they thought was ok, became defensive and/or aggressive.

As MrsTP points out, so much of the stuff we believe about the 'other' is ingrained so, in the same way as I wouldn't be able to call myself a black rights activist, men cannot realistically call themselves feminists. I try to be a great ally to people of colour and men can and should try to be good allies to feminism, even when it hurts.