Can Men Be Feminists?

[Yambabe]

Musing. While I've always been on the side of equality and rights for women I don't think, in the past, I would have called myself a feminist.

I'm now starting to do a little more background reading about history and feminist theories, but only really started and don't have the knowledge that I know some of you all do.

The more I read the more interesting it get though, and the more I realise that there is no one-size-fits-all definition of feminism. The basic premise seems to be that society treats men as superior to women, women are oppressed by patriarchy and that feminism exists in all its various forms to try and lift that oppression and attain true equality for women.

So with that in mind, is feminism something that only women can truly understand or is it something that can be open to anyone who understands the premise? There are undoubtedly some men who empathise with the theories and aims of feminism but are they feminists or just supporters?

Not sure where I'm going with this, just curious to see how others view it I think. Also happy to take on board any reading recommendations (although I have already found the other sections of FWR to be a great resource).

Made sexist jokes/rape jokes or thought they were funny
Used porn
Were happy enough to point out misogyny in other men, but when something was discussed that they thought was ok, became defensive and/or aggressive.

YY.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Defining misogyny as:

Anger, resentment, contempt for women as a group

Is problematic to say the least.

If I defined misandry as:

Anger, resentment, contempt for men as a group

would that be ok or accurate? Bearing in mind I've been told many times in this forum that misandry doesn't exist, by posters who display exactly those type of feelings?

Where would we be without men helpfully explaining feminism to us, eh.

I'm sitting on my hands here. MUST NOT INDULGE.

I think men can be feminists. I’ve never met one who describes themselves as one in real life though (only met a handful of women who describe themselves as feminist though).

53rdWay by 'explaining feminism to you', I assume you mean 'being involved in the discussion in a ne equal manner', i.e the entire aim of feminism... equality.

Unless you think feminism is just telling men why they are crap?

Which might well be your definition (and some other peoples on this forum) but its not really going to get you very far towards your goals is it?

Mansplain

Yes. Yes I think feminism is just telling men why they are crap. You got me.

Anyway, back at the conversation: I think the main issue I’ve found w/r/t men who consider themselves feminists/supportive of feminism is a dilution of what feminism actually is. A lot of men seem to take it awfully personally that feminism is a political movement, not just a vaguely defined collection of good intentions.

Men can support equality and women's rights but, with the best will in the world, they are often oblivious to some of the small issues which stand in the way of women's progress.

Politically, I was always much closer to my darling father than my mother. He believed very strongly in equality but I'm not sure that he would have deemed himself feminist. Similarly, my dh recently tried to initiate a programme for women in his very male dominated sector of a male dominated industry (to the bafflement of a room of blokes: "why would we need to..?"). Yet he realises that he, as a man, needs to tread softly.

I agree with the analogy above about race.

Nor am I saying this absolves men of trying to support feminism. Identity politics which decrees that nothing can be said or done without experience is ridiculous and, if carried through, would mean that no politician would have any duty to empathize or act on behalf of anyone with whom they did not share background or experience (inevitable this would impact the most marginalized)

So yes, men can and should fight for feminism just as we should all fight racism, against poverty and for other things of which we may have no direct experience.

But that means listening and empathizing. All too often men like a certain honorary 'Dr' announce they are feminists (apparently on his Twitter last night) which seems to translate as "shut up pesky females, I know far more about all this than you". Men like him won't listen because, apparently, they know it already.

No. You cannot be part of the oppressing group with all the benefits that entails and also be part of the group trying to end the oppression.

As for PP misandry does not exist. There is no system on earth set up to oppress men out of hatred. If people hate men it is on an individual basis because men have been abusive. It is NOTHING like misogynistic structures we see in every country on earth.

Men who are genuinely supportive are happy with the ally label in my experience.

This. The ones who could, just maybe, actually be feminists would never claim the label. And they are vanishingly few in number.

I'm sitting on my hands here. MUST NOT INDULGE.

Indeed. Just let the demonstration of why men can't be feminists continue all by itself.

I am dying to know though: did you consider the use of PatriarchyPersonified to be ironic? Or is it any accurate descriptor? And in either event, why did you then think mansplaining feminism was a good look? Or is performance art?

LangCleg

But I find the 'ally' title problematic to say the least.

If I support a cause, I support a set of principles, not a set of people, because surely you accept that members of a group can often actively work against a principle they should support, or seek to undermine its goals, either consciously or unconsciously.

If I'm an 'ally' then I have to support them and agree with them based on nothing but their membership of that group.

Whereas if I support the principle instead, I can rightly call them out on talking bollocks.

Thanks for this, excellent phrases to use.

Male here.
Not sure at all why men would really want to be called 'feminist' or say that to themselves. fwiw I'm happy to get to be a 'feminist-in-action' (and in words when required) and satisfied to be counted as an 'ally', if that's the favoured term.

And I'd look through narrowed eyes at males who wish to claim to be more.

Men can be "Feminist Allies" (not a term I like, but it suits).

I personally don't think you can actually be a fully paid up member if you haven't experienced the issues first hand.

One thing that’s become increasingly clear to me over the past few years is that a lot of men who call themselves feminist, or generally progressive/liberal/lefty/whatever, don’t think women are oppressed as a class at all. They think women are treated unfairly sometimes as individuals, maybe as a group in other countries, but that’s it. So they don’t have anything to say about feminism as a struggle to end that oppression. They’re perfectly content with saying “I think women should get to vote, therefore I’m a feminist”.

There are many things that men could do today that would go a long way towards rendering the need for feminism obsolete. But they don't do them. I've posted my list before-apologies to anyone who's read it already

1. Take full responsibility for their fare share of domestic work and childcare.
2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
3. Stop using prostitutes.
4. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel they are on is 50% women- if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
5. Stop watching porn.
6. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
8. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men.

But I find the 'ally' title problematic to say the least.

But you're a bloke, so I don't care what you find problematic within feminist discourse. Your opinion is irrelevant to me with regards to this discussion and any lordly pronouncements made by men on this topic function simply as QEDs. End of.

TheCountryGirl

Presumably your going with the whole 'prejudice + power' definition for misogyny, rather than the more normal, 'prejudice against women' definition.

I have gone through this in plenty of detail when people have tried that one with racism.

For the sake of completeness here it is again:

'Prejudice + power' is a stipulation definition that defines racism/sexism/misogyny/misandry (delete as appropriate) in some very specific cases.

It is not, nor was ever intended to be, the only 'true' definition that supercedes all others.

For example if I were to say 'to love someone is to give your life for them', that is a true statement and a stimulative definition of love that is true in some cases.

It does not then allow me to tell anyone who claims to feel love that they are wrong because my definition is the only true definition of love.

I mean, I don't even have an arts degree and I knew that...

Lol misspelled twice...

Stipulative definition

Just let the demonstration of why men can't be feminists continue all by itself

BertrandRussell

Any panel they are on isn't 50% women

Why? What if their industry isn't 50% female?

Should every professional panel of midwives/nurses be 50% male?

oooh, popcorn.