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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can Men Be Feminists?

263 replies

Yambabe · 02/08/2018 23:50

Musing. While I've always been on the side of equality and rights for women I don't think, in the past, I would have called myself a feminist.

I'm now starting to do a little more background reading about history and feminist theories, but only really started and don't have the knowledge that I know some of you all do.

The more I read the more interesting it get though, and the more I realise that there is no one-size-fits-all definition of feminism. The basic premise seems to be that society treats men as superior to women, women are oppressed by patriarchy and that feminism exists in all its various forms to try and lift that oppression and attain true equality for women.

So with that in mind, is feminism something that only women can truly understand or is it something that can be open to anyone who understands the premise? There are undoubtedly some men who empathise with the theories and aims of feminism but are they feminists or just supporters?

Not sure where I'm going with this, just curious to see how others view it I think. Also happy to take on board any reading recommendations (although I have already found the other sections of FWR to be a great resource).

OP posts:
PatriarchyPersonified · 03/08/2018 10:44

53rd, well yeah tbh it might help...

We all have to live in this world together. What you (rad fems) are saying is that you want it all your way, or not at all.

How is that any different than the illusory 'oppression' that you rail against? (Just in the opposite direction)

Bingpot · 03/08/2018 10:47

Oh my god, it just keeps getting better.

Remember ladies, our oppression is only illusory...

Agastache · 03/08/2018 10:48

We all have to live in this world together. What you (rad fems) are saying is that you want it all your way, or not at all.

'Our way' as you put it is to have no oppression. Of anyone.

Why are you against that? Or can you just not visualise that at all?

TheCountryGirl · 03/08/2018 10:48

We all have to live in this world together. What you (rad fems) are saying is that you want it all your way, or not at all.

🤨Oh my days! You have to be having a laugh now. It is the MEN you need to be saying this to - it is MEN who fail to see that women live here too and it is MEN who want it all their own way. Ffs you're mad!

Agastache · 03/08/2018 10:49
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 03/08/2018 10:49

How about we pick a stranger at random. What's the odds they'll find the status quo or people who are trying to change the status quo more 'reasonable'?

Not as though feminists know all too well the way it will tip - hence the need for a feminist movement and everything...

PatriarchyPersonified · 03/08/2018 10:49

Agastache

Our way is to have no oppression

So is mine. Like I said, we have more in common than you think.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 10:50

“We all have to live in this world together. What you (rad fems) are saying is that you want it all your way, or not at all.”

Can you say more about this? What do we want that you don’t?

UpstartCrow · 03/08/2018 10:51

Just for once it would be great if men and women could have a discussion without the MRA's panicking and dashing in to put a stop to it.

Bingpot · 03/08/2018 10:52

But @PatriarchyPersonified
you've just said our oppression is illusory, so whose oppression are you challenging - or is the world just perfect as it is for you?

IAmLurkacus · 03/08/2018 10:52

I think AF had this whole thread covered with her original post of ‘no’.

I assume I count as a ‘muggle’ (never read any feminist theory, unmarried SAHM to several kids) I think the usual posters (as per usual) are stating basic common sense and PP sounds like a complete tool!

PatriarchyPersonified · 03/08/2018 10:55

Bingpot as I have said many times on here:

The world is far from perfect and many changes need to made.

Western women are not oppressed.

These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

53rdWay · 03/08/2018 11:01

This “you feminists would do so much better if you’d just learn to compromise with what men want” thing is always an interesting approach, isn’t it? Condescending offers to help us silly ladies understand how the real world works, with an underlying threat of “and if you don’t do feminism the way men want you to do feminism then your whole movement will crash and burn and you won’t get any of the rights you’re fighting for.”

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 03/08/2018 11:03

Ladies! Please stop wanting things all your own way! We've let you vote and go to university! Stop being so silly as to think that you should be on company boards or get paid the same as clever men. And who was the silly fluffy thing who wanted women in films talking to each other?!

You're just oppressing those poor men with all these suggestions they help with the washing up.

Now run along and make some tea, there's a pet.

Patriarchy, slowly now. No-one is oppressing you - especially not women. No-one wants to oppress you. You say you want equality, but it seems that is only as long as it doesn't actually impinge on you, your privilege or anything you enjoy. Bertrand gave you a list which you called ill considered. I'm still dying to know why not using prostitutes or porn or making rape jokes is unreasonable. I'll wait...

AssassinatedBeauty · 03/08/2018 11:03

It's always disappointing when a man you're hopeful actually understands and wants to make real changes demonstrates that he really doesn't. I feel high profile men like Justin Trudeau fall into this category.

PatriarchyPersonified · 03/08/2018 11:08

Alice

I've critiqued Bertrand lists before (I think it was Bertrand anyway, the points were very similar, apologies if have her mixed up with someone else) please advanced search my username to see my thoughts.

In summary I don't disagree with every point, but there is an incredible lack of nuance that renders the ones I kind of agree with unworkable.

See me previous posts on this for the detail.

Bingpot · 03/08/2018 11:10

'Western women aren't oppressed'.

Says the man complaining of a lack of nuance in debate.

53rdWay · 03/08/2018 11:12

please advanced search my username to see my thoughts.

Oh, mate...

PatriarchyPersonified · 03/08/2018 11:14

I think my biggest observation of a lot of these kind of discussions is that there is a minority of people who spend all their time obsessing over (sexism/racism/patriarchy delete as appropriate) and trying in every way to construct a narrative where a particular demographic are terribly oppressed and hard done by victims in every conceivable scenario.

It feels like this vocal minority really rather enjoy victimhood (real or imagined) and would find their lives existentially meaningless without it. (And the journalists and commentators who live in this world would be considerably poorer without their 'race to the bottom' status as victims.)

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 11:14

Could you do the advanced search for us?

UpstartCrow · 03/08/2018 11:15

It would be easier all round to list that kind of info in your profile.

Pythagonal · 03/08/2018 11:16

Ooh can I be someone's Muggle? Can I, can I, please, please, please! Grin

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2018 11:17

"trying in every way to construct a narrative where a particular demographic are terribly oppressed and hard done by victims in every conceivable scenario."
Good lord. Where on earth have you been to meet people like that? They must be very tiresome. A bit like MRA. They are tiresome too.

Jeanhatchet · 03/08/2018 11:19

No. Men cannot be feminists.

Men have a vested interest - spoken or unspoken - defended or undefended - complicit or naively oblivious - in upholding the privilege of patriarchy.

My question to a man is this "why would you want to be a feminist? It's crap being oppressed. What can you a man hope to achieve? Do you wanna get laid? Do you wanna get a kick out of being better to women than the other guys? Do you wanna look good to women? Feel better about yourself?

If you want to be a spare part of a movement to dismantle systems that oppress women .... go and hand every bit of cash you own in at a women's refuge? Go and get in the way of the fist of the man punching a woman. Go and hand half your wages to the woman serving you in the coffee shop. Go and tell men who say they are women to stop being entitled assholes. Vote for women. Buy women's books and records exclusively. Watch women directors instead of men. Don't apply for a job if there's a woman applying too. Step aside. Recommend her. Object to the sexist joke when you hear it. Don't watch porn. Tell other men not to watch porn. Don't rape women. Don't touch women if they don't invite the contact. Don't tell women things they already know. Don't steal the words of women. Don't blog your views of women's issues or work.... point people at women who do it better than you. Don't sit on a panel on issues affecting women - insist a woman has the place. Preferably a woman of colour. Acknowledge with grace when women don't want you around. Don't get annoyed when women self-organise. Step aside as women march and applaud."

Sit down as women rise.

You are not a feminist. You just aren't a problematic man. You don't need a t shirt for that.

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