Can Men Be Feminists?

[Yambabe]

Musing. While I've always been on the side of equality and rights for women I don't think, in the past, I would have called myself a feminist.

I'm now starting to do a little more background reading about history and feminist theories, but only really started and don't have the knowledge that I know some of you all do.

The more I read the more interesting it get though, and the more I realise that there is no one-size-fits-all definition of feminism. The basic premise seems to be that society treats men as superior to women, women are oppressed by patriarchy and that feminism exists in all its various forms to try and lift that oppression and attain true equality for women.

So with that in mind, is feminism something that only women can truly understand or is it something that can be open to anyone who understands the premise? There are undoubtedly some men who empathise with the theories and aims of feminism but are they feminists or just supporters?

Not sure where I'm going with this, just curious to see how others view it I think. Also happy to take on board any reading recommendations (although I have already found the other sections of FWR to be a great resource).

I don't see why they can't. White people can be anti-racists, can't they? I hope so, anyway.

In practice, I don't know many men who call themselves feminists. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

**

My penis says. My penis says. My penis says. My penis says.

And I agree with Bertrand's list.

Bertrand's list is spot on

Misogyny is when women face oppression because they are women. Men DO NOT face oppression because they are men. Ffs what do you not get about that?

TheCountryGirl that might be your definition of misogyny but it's not the one the rest of the world goes with I'm afraid.

I can just picture your excitement when you saw this thread title, PP.

Every woman hearing a man say they are feminist, should ask themselves, 'what is this man trying to get out of this'.

Usually it is sex. A power grab at fucking feminists literally.

Every woman hearing a man say they are feminist, should ask themselves, 'what is this man trying to get out of this'.

Absolutely.

Men can't be feminists. When men declare themselves to be feminists, they invariably demonstrate exactly why men can't be feminists.

Indeed.

White people can be allies, and support BAME people.
But they shouldn't be directing BAME activism or explaining to black people how they are getting it wrong.

Its the same for men and feminism.

White people can be anti-racists. But I’d say that as a white person, it’s my duty to understand that my good intentions don’t magically make me immune to the power system at play. Therefore, I shouldn’t presume that my opposition to racism entitles me to appoint myself in charge in a movement which is about somebody else’s liberation.

Likewise, men can support feminist goals and feminist actions. But men who say “I’m a feminist too, therefore I get an equal say in what feminism is and what we do” are fundamentally missing the point of feminism.

Upstart said it better!

Also that you aren't unconsciously racist.

TheCountryGirl that might be your definition of misogyny but it's not the one the rest of the world goes with I'm afraid.

Mansplaining misogyny.

Lol.

Naughty ladies, having your own interpretation of misogyny.

53rd

But surely you can see that your theories about the 'power systems' involved in racism/sexism are neither universally shared or even accepted?

What your effectively saying is 'if you don't do feminism/anti-racism in exactly the way I want you to, then you are wrong. And I don't want anything to do with you'

Surely focussing on the end result and the underlying principle behind what you are trying to achieve is more important?

I don't accept patriarchy, I don't accept that UK society is systematically racist. You do, on this point we differ but I'm sure we agree on far more points than we disagree on.

So far we have:

• trying to turn this into a discussion of misandry (still not a thing, no systemic oppression of men and their rights)

-saying women are 'talking bollocks' for their definition of feminism

• patronising us even without an arts degree (because only silly women have those yeah?) with terms that he can't even spell correctly

-insinuating another (female) poster is childish for 'crayoning over the board' with their comments

What other gifts have you, sir, as we continue to discuss whether men can be feminists?

"BertrandRussell

Any panel they are on isn't 50% women

Why? What if their industry isn't 50% female?"
Glad that's the only one of my points you disagree with, PP.Assuming that you agree with and do all the rest.

I think they can be alies but not feminists.

I think men who identify as feminists are like white South Africans who opposed apartheid.

You can see that the system is wrong but you have had a better education, earn more money,live in a better area etc.

If you assault someone from the 'otherside' the police will ask what the other person did to provoke you and assume you are innocent, they will then ask the other person why they were in the area and what did they expect to happen? (OK hopefully this is getting less).

You get to enter clubs, use better facilities and not be questioned. You will ever be routinely abused verbally or physically by the 'other' group. and be expected to accept it.

The underlying principle behind what I want to achieve is the liberation of women from male supremacy. There are plenty of other women who are happy to water down ‘feminism’ to utter vapidity in exchange for getting men to be nice about it, go pester them.

I lost a big post a minute ago. Saying basically.

Lots of great points from the women in this thread.

My feeling is when feminism was deeply unfashionable and maligned in the backlash (1990s - 2010 ish) some feminists tried to sell it to men by saying it benefits men too ie- you too can be liberated from oppressive gender and benefit from sexually liberated and assertive women, etc, etc.

Really men should support feminism because it is the right thing to do and they are decent people, not because of what might be in it for them

Look at the state we're in. Entitled men thinking wearing frilly knickers, lipstick and a skirt breaks the gender binary instead of doing the 50% cleaning, caring, clerical and catering that would actually make a difference to women.

Bertrand

You know I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think a lot of your list is ill-considered.

The 50% representation point was just the simplest to challenge without having to type a small essay on my phone.

Do you think that professional panels of nurses/midwives should be 50% male? If not then why not and how is that consistent with your previous point?

"You know I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think a lot of your list is ill-considered. "
You don't, you know. You think it will involve men actually doing stuff.

If men are massively disadvantaged and passed over for promotion in nursing then yes, panels should include men. But they aren't. So that's OK.