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Original poster

Transwomen in sport - I need sources re their advantage

96 replies

Lacypants · 02/08/2018 10:07

I have a male friend who was saying trans women shouldn't be able to compete in boxing, MMA etc against women. I agreed and said that they shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports at all. This is where disagreement arose. He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage. I said that's tough shit really. Then I pointed out that women might as well not fucking bother when trans women enter their sports as they almost always win. I couldn't find any of my sources regarding this, because somehow I've managed to delete all the notes on my phone where I had saved the links. Can anyone help me gather sources again? I tried googling but almost everything that came up was about how trans women deffo don't have an advantage coz that's TRANSPHOBIC.

My stance is that I don't mind what people do with their lives, but it's men's job to make space for men who don't conform to stereotypes, not women's job. So all women shortlists should be all female. Women's prisons should be all female. Women's sports should be all female.

OP posts:
viques · 02/08/2018 10:20

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theOtherPamAyres · 02/08/2018 11:22

Personal testimony

I played two rounds of golf with a feminine trans. Golf is one of those games where there are handicaps and different tee-off positions for men, women and children, so that anyone can compete against anyone and be evenly matched.

My opponent was a well built individual with powerful upper body strength compatible with her sex. She could drive the ball huge distances. We would have been fairly matched had she tee'd off from the men's tee. Instead, she was allowed to use the women's tee and take advantage of her superior strength and power.

The second time was in a mixed competition - a man and woman on one team against another man and woman. Effectively, the opposing team had two men. One of those men was playing a shorter course and had an unfair advantage.

Other women felt that it was pointless playing in competitions against her. Men felt the same about playing in mixed competitions.

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 11:30

As yet there aren't many 'professional' examples, but they will grow as the self-id issue gains ground world-wide.

One of the obfuscations being put up is that it's all about testosterone levels, which is a big fat lie; however, given that the levels allowed for trans or intersex athletes to compete in women's sport are massively greater than natal women ever have (and the irony that were a natal woman to take testosterone to bring herself up to the level allowed for non-natal women, she'd be banned ), this is itself is going to offer much greater opportunity for trans or intersex athletes to effectively ruin women's sport at elite levels.

Just have a look at the first 3 athletes in the women's 800m at Rio...

UpstartCrow · 02/08/2018 11:43

Why bother giving him examples? He isn't interested in sport, women, equality or fair play.

''When people tell you who they are, believe them''.

SarahAr · 02/08/2018 12:27

There is a Nz weightlifter who is really trouncing the system, firstly by discovering [their] hidden vagina and going from being a mediocre man to a top of the range female, and second by getting [their] mega rich family to finance a competition which led to eligibility to represent NZ internationally.

Do you mean Laurel Hubbard? She was not mediocre as a man. She won the NZ junior record. Her story could be told as top NZ junior weightlifter finally fulfils her potential after completing her gender transition.

I don't know the conditions under which trans and intersex athletes can compete fairly. Neither I suspect do the authorities. The answer is more academic research.

And rather than hating on trans and intersex athletes, we should celebrate their success. They have worked as hard as anyone and compete fairly under the current rules.

boomboo · 02/08/2018 12:31

My experience of playing football against a transwoman, much faster and stronger but not technically better. However seemed a bit pointless trying to compete against her really.

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 12:34

And rather than hating on trans and intersex athletes, we should celebrate their success. They have worked as hard as anyone and compete fairly under the current rules.

"Hating on"? Wanting women and girls to have their sport without male-bodied people pushing their way in and destroying women's elite sport?

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 12:35

He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage

Any disadvantage though is specifically relative to the potential strength / stamina of their individual bodies prior to medical / surgical interventions.

slug · 02/08/2018 12:41

So why, if Lauren Hubbard was a good male athlete did they feel obliged to compete as a female and guarantee victory? If they are that good they should be competing against fair competition.

I'm reminded of Oscar Pistorous' campaign to compete in the able bodied Olympics because that, for him, was where the competition was.

azicrow · 02/08/2018 12:47

"So why, if Lauren Hubbard was a good male athlete did they feel obliged to compete as a female and guarantee victory? If they are that good they should be competing against fair competition."

Because she's woman, and she's hardly unbeaten either.

TheCountryGirl · 02/08/2018 12:52

Because she's woman, and she's hardly unbeaten either.

Ffs, these lies are just tedious now.

slug · 02/08/2018 12:59

"She" has a penis, testosterone and really a really obvious male body. Interesting that the narrative is of a promising weightlifter fulfilling their potential, when in fact it appears that they were, at best, mediocre. It must have been very disappointing not to win when they had so much advantage over the women in the competition.

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 12:59

Camilla Long The Times April 2018:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-funny-how-womenwont-own-uptobeing-wary-of-have-i-got-news-for-you-ph2lrxvnj

"A power jerk in the weightlifting

"Why is Laurel Hubbard, a 39-year-old male-to-female transgender athlete allowed to compete in the female weightlifting category at the Commonwealth Games in Australia?

The mere facts beggar belief. Hubbard, a Kiwi formerly named Gavin, is so muscular she has beaten every other woman in her category by 19kg. While the average age for success in this sport is 24, Hubbard is 15 years older than that. Games officials have claimed that her levels of testosterone are acceptable for competing; human rights campaigners have insisted Hubbard be treated on merit and that “participation in sport and physical activity” is a human right.

What about the human rights of other contestants not to be beaten by someone who, as an expert put it, has always had the advantage of a bigger heart, bigger lungs, bigger bones, more overall body power? Why is it OK for Kiwis to present a competitor who has in every way modified her body, but not for the doping Russians? I cannot see the difference between Hubbard and, say, the East German shot putter Heidi (now Andreas) Krieger, who at least had no idea the pills her coach gave her weren’t “loffley liddle vidamins”, but anabolic steroids."

threads discussing the impact of Lauren Hubbard's place in women's weightlifting competition:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3216705-Australia-protesting-Laurel-Hubbard

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2871444-To-wonder-how-males-are-allowed-to-compete-and-win-in-female-sports

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3166226-Sorry-sport-and-trans-again

hackmum · 02/08/2018 13:03

Does he also think able-bodied athletes should be allowed to compete in the Paralympics? Maybe adults who identify as children should be allowed to compete in the under-12s football?

GrumbleBumble · 02/08/2018 13:09

Take a look at the men's world records and the women's. The men's are faster, higher, further. Is this because men have a physical advantage or does he think there is another reason?

Cyw2018 · 02/08/2018 13:14

Lauren Jeska, ruined my friend fell running career, until they were jailed for attempted murder!

nauticant · 02/08/2018 13:21

Why bother giving him examples? He isn't interested in sport, women, equality or fair play.

I struggle to engage with anyone who would deny that male-bodied athletes will not have an inbuilt advantage over female-bodied athletes in sporting competitions. They are lying, in denial, or adopting a faith position. Whichever it is, I find arguing over this to be pointless.

But then I recognise these are tactics to close down productive discussion so power to those who are willing to keep arguing over this.

Melanippe · 02/08/2018 13:26

Cycling is another area where trans women have competed against women and won. It seems that they didn't quite have it to compete against the men, but as Grumble said above there are disparities between male and female records, they are still able to beat women.

Women have worked so hard to be taken seriously in sport and now this. It's utterly unfair.

BirthCanal · 02/08/2018 14:18

I once read that if there was a 60 km race that actually women would win. I wonder if it's true? We should campaign for it to be in the Olympics and insist transwomen are in the women's race.

BirthCanal · 02/08/2018 14:22

Sadly it's not true. It's called ultramarathon.

MrsWooster · 02/08/2018 14:24

FloJo still holds the womens 100m record. There are currently 13 men who are faster over the same distance.

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 14:25

I once read that if there was a 60 km race that actually women would win. I wonder if it's true?

Unlikely. There are some useful records here of longer race times and best men's and women's results.

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 14:25

Here!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon

GrumbleBumble · 02/08/2018 15:07

Birth I heard a radio interview many years ago in which the guest said that the female body (carrying higher fat ratios, different muscle patterns) theoretically make the female body better suited to ultra endurance type events but the records don't seem to back this up in practise.

I looked at the world records for a number of events for a similar thread a while ago and the difference between men's and women's records are roughly 10% for the running events from 100m to marathon so the distance doesn't seem to have an impact.

Babdoc · 02/08/2018 15:18

The problem arises because the governing bodies of the various sports think testosterone level is the only male advantage, and once that’s been reduced it’s a level playing field. This is patent nonsense. A male athlete will have a higher cardiac output, bigger lungs, and much greater muscle bulk than a female athlete. Trans athletes don’t lose all these advantages just by swallowing hormones.
The only sensible solution is to have a separate trans Olympics, rather like the Paralympics, where these male bodied transwomen can compete just against each other.