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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transwomen in sport - I need sources re their advantage

96 replies

Lacypants · 02/08/2018 10:07

I have a male friend who was saying trans women shouldn't be able to compete in boxing, MMA etc against women. I agreed and said that they shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports at all. This is where disagreement arose. He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage. I said that's tough shit really. Then I pointed out that women might as well not fucking bother when trans women enter their sports as they almost always win. I couldn't find any of my sources regarding this, because somehow I've managed to delete all the notes on my phone where I had saved the links. Can anyone help me gather sources again? I tried googling but almost everything that came up was about how trans women deffo don't have an advantage coz that's TRANSPHOBIC.

My stance is that I don't mind what people do with their lives, but it's men's job to make space for men who don't conform to stereotypes, not women's job. So all women shortlists should be all female. Women's prisons should be all female. Women's sports should be all female.

OP posts:
user1471428657 · 02/08/2018 15:21

As grumblebumble said the differences between male and female world records are roughly 10% for all distances from 60m up to multi-days (which, irrelevant aside, is interesting given the very different physiologies of sprinting and long distance running).

The higher body fat levels of women is probably a red-herring. Even thin men have enough body fat to fuel running for several days. Women sometimes winning ultra marathons overall is probably a small numbers effect-it’s a niche sport. There is some evidence that women are, on average, better at the non-physical aspects of it e.g. pacing. But the difference between the very best male and female ultra-runners is still the standard 10%.

Materialist · 02/08/2018 15:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 15:37

Male-bodied people have physical advantages over female-bodied people.

Gosh. I'm shocked.

BirthCanal · 02/08/2018 15:42

After having three girls, my baby boy felt very different I must say. I can't see that just having the appropriate testosterone level after years of testosterone's influence on all your developmental milestones can even things up. Some molecules/cells in the body have a very slow turnover indeed, and the Y chromosome is ever present in all cells influencing cellular events. For example, I believe the molecules in the lens of your eye you are born with you die with.
Trans people should clearly be part of the paralympics.

howlsmovingcastle84 · 02/08/2018 15:45

Remember everyone-we will soon have the 'ducking under the bar' event that we can compete in! I trust you have all been putting in the training as I have.

silentcrow · 02/08/2018 15:47

Women do seem to do well at endurance swimming over both distance and low temperature. It's a spectator sport for me as I have friends in that world; on observation it's reasonably well-balanced in terms of participation and completion of ridiculously long swims. But it's extraordinarily expensive to participate in, both financially and in training time, tilting it (as usual) towards being a rich man's game.

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 15:58

The problem arises because the governing bodies of the various sports think testosterone level is the only male advantage, and once that’s been reduced it’s a level playing field

2015 Metro interview with Delia Johnson includes discussion about Trans Inclusive sporting policy making she was involved with:
(extract)
"Another hot topic that surrounds transgender people in sport is the issue of gender categorisation – something which Delia feels strongly about: At what point is it fair for a man who has transitioned into woman to play for the women’s team, and vice versa? According to their 2003 rules the IOC [International Olympic Committee] says you need to be on two years of medical hormones before you can play on the team of your assigned gender – something Delia believes is the wrong approach. ‘I think those rules are stupid,’ she says. ‘The requirements are extremely demanding and not all individuals can achieve what is required in time. By then, they may have passed their peak in terms of performance.’

Delia argues that physically, you change greatly, quickly, once you start taking female hormones. ‘When I play badminton now, my mind says I can do that shot but my body says, “in your dreams”. ‘I believe sport is so important. It helps you socially physically and mentally,’ she says. ‘Sports UK and Sports England have now rolled out new guidance. They’ve issued a Transsexual Inclusion In Sport document for domestic, national and international competitions. ‘But there’s not enough actual sports governing bodies implementing changes and policy review in light of this.

‘More still needs to be done. I’m not letting them get off lightly!’ On the ‘trans-friendly’ FA As Delia says, some bodies deserve credit where it’s due. Namely, the English Football Association, or The FA. Delia worked for the organisation despite, she says, having been told they were ‘homophobic’. Undeterred, she went in and examined the structure of the organisation from a transgender perspective, and found The FA to be the most inclusive of all sports organisations she’d come across – and in fact, the most instrumental in getting transsexuals involved in football. ‘A female to male person wants to do what any other male does – which may include playing football,’ she says. ‘The FA has been the most pro-active and reactive in their inclusion of trans people within football. ‘There are, incredibly, many new transsexuals participating in various levels of football this year.’

Delia believes that if we keep this conversation going, even more trans athletes can step out in the field much sooner. ‘Looking back over the last five and a half years, who would have thought that I would achieve so much after going through so much, that I would help so many, and most importantly, that I would have so much fun?’ she says. ‘After the formal start of my transition I promised myself that I would help as many other transgender people as I could. ‘I helped many individuals and organisations until I was headhunted into London 2012, where my love of sport was found.’

metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228541-Max-testosterone-level-for-trans-athletes-to-be-halved

April 2018 Liz Truss' support for MN position (free respectful discussion) was made public.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228488-Liz-Truss-MP-breaks-cover-backs-MN

comment from Daily Mail article:
'Cabinet minister prompts transgender row after backing Mumsnet users 'leading backlash against militant activists.
Cabinet minister Liz Truss has incurred the wrath of the transgender community:Tweeted article which praised forum for letting users 'question the tenets' of transgenderism'

(extract)
"Last night Delia Johnston, the former head of a charity campaigning for trans sportspeople to be allowed to compete in their chosen gender, condemned Ms Truss. Ms Johnston said: ‘She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise.’

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228488-Liz-Truss-MP-breaks-cover-backs-MN

Inclusion policies in sport (as in all areas) for people who are transgender are vital BUT in order for sport to remain inclusive, there must also be consideration and impact assesments on how such policies might affect some women and girls.

OlennasWimple · 02/08/2018 15:59

Look up Andraya Yarwood (and remember that in the US sporting prowess can mean scholarships to university - truly life changing stuff)

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 16:08

Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community

Can someone point me to where "violence against the transgender community" has been advocated on MN?

Because I'm thinking that's just a big lie.

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 16:08

Cycling is another area where trans women have competed against women and won

Feb 2018 NZ
'Mountain biking: Lack of stand down period for transgender rider causes confusion for field'

"Confusion around the crossover period of transgender athletes is seeing some Kiwi downhill mountain bikers shy away from competition in the sport, a former world No.2 junior says.

It's a result of Kate Weatherly's involvement in women's divisions not because she's a transgender rider, but because there was just a three-week period between her competing in male and female divisions.

Weatherly, who won the national women's championship in Wanaka last Sunday, rode as a male until December last year, then competed as a women for the beginning of the 2018 National Downhill Series in January.

With no notice that Weatherly would be allow to ride in the female division so soon after, fellow rider Shania Rawson said there was a bit of confusion around the rules.

"She's been riding as a guy for four or five years then with no stand down period whatsoever she was in the girls' category," Rawson said. "I thought there would be some sort of stand down period for that situation." (continues)
Rawson, the former No.2 junior women's rider in the world, finished second to Weatherly in the National Championships in Wanaka at the weekend – 13 seconds behind. Third-placed Amy Cole crossed the line 47 seconds behind Weatherly.

It was a small field for the elite women's championship race, with just five starting riders. Rawson said a number of girls didn't want to race as they felt it was unfair for Weatherly to be allowed to ride immediately.

Weatherly had been in communication with Cycling New Zealand to ensure she was well within the (testosterone) limits that they had set before she made the switch to the women's field."

www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12002309

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2018 16:13

Go to your nearest secondary school sports day. Look at the times, heights and distances for girls and boys from about 14.

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2018 16:14

“Remember everyone-we will soon have the 'ducking under the bar' event that we can compete in! I trust you have all been putting in the training as I have“

Not to mention the special bendy gymnastics.

nauticant · 02/08/2018 16:16

If I remember correctly, women can compete effectively with men in surviving in cold seas before dying but I don't think this is likely to make it into the Olympics as an event.

OlennasWimple · 02/08/2018 16:20

Yes, nauticant, because women have a higher fat to muscle ratio (the opposite being true for men is what gives them greater speed and strength, of course)

OP - does your friend realise that in amateur sport self-ID is already here? So someone saying "I am a woman" gets to compete in the women's events regardless of whether they have had surgery or taken any hormone treatment

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 16:22

Janice Turner asked following a US 100m high school race (mentioned previously in thread)

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

Look for the girls' faces who come 3rd, 4th, 5th
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQfyIhv9GM

VickyEadie · 02/08/2018 16:23

Go to your nearest secondary school sports day. Look at the times, heights and distances for girls and boys from about 14.

You can find a bit of a difference earlier than that, actually. A young relative of mine is the U13 record holder in her sport and the boys' equivalent is 9 seconds faster.

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 16:25

“Remember everyone-we will soon have the 'ducking under the bar' event that we can compete in! I trust you have all been putting in the training as I have“

I just had that thread open!:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305954-FWR-more-unpleasant-than-ever

2rebecca · 02/08/2018 16:34

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/ is a good article on the differences between men and women in sport. As transwomen are male there is no reason their bodies will suddenly stop behaving like male bodies when they identify as women. How much advantage they have will depend on when they transitioned, what hormones they are taking and what their testosterone level is. The olympic top female level of 10 is ridiculously high as most women are under 3, very few over 5. Some sports have reduced it to 5.
Males will still have higher VO2 max on average, the advantages of the male pelvis in running, plus males have different muscle composition as uk.humankinetics.com/blogs/excerpts/reasons-for-gender-differences-in-youth-sport shows.
Female sport should be for people without Y chromosomes.

OlennasWimple · 02/08/2018 16:36

My boobs keep getting in the way when I practice ducking under the bar Sad

borntobequiet · 02/08/2018 16:40

I'm astonished that anyone involved in sport in any way can think that physical attributes such as height, weight, lung capacity etc don't matter. After all, any sports coach will use physical attributes (among other things) to estimate whether someone will be good at whatever the sport is - the bigger and stronger the better for some, the neater and more agile for others. To say it's just down to testosterone levels is ridiculous. They must know this, therefore are simply lying.

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2018 17:03

“You can find a bit of a difference earlier than that, actually. A young relative of mine is the U13 record holder in her sport and the boys' equivalent is 9 seconds faster.”

I picked 14 as an arbitrary age where the differences are clear and unquestionable- I think they are pretty noticeable at 12, actually.

UpstartCrow · 02/08/2018 17:07

OlennasWimple Have you tried a sports bra, instead of your everyday 1950's pointy tits bra?

OlennasWimple · 02/08/2018 17:15

Ah, maybe that's where I'm going wrong Upstart. But then I won't look as good in my sparkly leotard (that was the agreed, mandatory uniform for this event, wasn't it?)

theOtherPamAyres · 02/08/2018 18:23

Another thing about the US sprint videos, where the lads strode home easily.

I understand that there was a lot more at stake than just winning the race. Weren't they all battling for a scholarship to study at a particular college specialising in sport?

In other words a man unfairly obtained a college place reserved for women athletes, on the back of having an unfair advantage in the test. Cheat, cheat, cheat....cheat, cheat, cheat...cheat, cheat, cheat

A quadruple whammy!

annandale · 02/08/2018 18:34

The idea of a trans games seems ludicrous to me. The issue of intersex athletes is much more complex.

Everyone who was born into one sex class should compete in that sex class. Some people who are less talented will therefore not qualify for some competitions. I have never competed at the national championships for my sport because I'm not bloody good enough.