Transwomen in sport - I need sources re their advantage

[Lacypants]

I have a male friend who was saying trans women shouldn't be able to compete in boxing, MMA etc against women. I agreed and said that they shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports at all. This is where disagreement arose. He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage. I said that's tough shit really. Then I pointed out that women might as well not fucking bother when trans women enter their sports as they almost always win. I couldn't find any of my sources regarding this, because somehow I've managed to delete all the notes on my phone where I had saved the links. Can anyone help me gather sources again? I tried googling but almost everything that came up was about how trans women deffo don't have an advantage coz that's TRANSPHOBIC.

My stance is that I don't mind what people do with their lives, but it's men's job to make space for men who don't conform to stereotypes, not women's job. So all women shortlists should be all female. Women's prisons should be all female. Women's sports should be all female.

Larry - I agree. I've read so many accounts from TW who feel like they are as weak as a mouse after taking female hormones, but they don't appear to realise that they are still stronger than most women (for a variety of reasons, including limb length and the benefits of years and years of testosterone)

My DS at 13 is slightly shorter than me, but can run faster and win an arm wrestle against me (and I'm a decent enough sprinter and not a bad arm wrestler)

Yes. For this reason - and for sports only, other issues are very different - I really think there needs to be an objective view taken of pre and post transition outcomes. If hormones level thevplayig filed completely, well then perhaps that’s ok. But then we shouldn’t be seeing trans women dominating a field unless they dominated in the male arena pre transition. But where is the research?

It's important to remember that with self ID people won't even necessarily be taking hormones.

Actually- I think my ds was younger than 14 when he got stronger than me. We used to play a game called "boytrap" when I caught him unawares and pinned him down. I remember a day when he could suddenly always escape. And I'm sure we stopped playing that game well before he was 14..... maybe 12?

Remember everyone-we will soon have the 'ducking under the bar' event that we can compete in! I trust you have all been putting in the training as I have

I stopped my training as it was pointed out that Ducking Under The Bar was against the Geneva Convention.

The differences between girls and boys is fairly evident before late primary school, speed and strength. By high school, those differences are out of the park.

I and a female friend used to work in an industry overwhelmingly male dominated because the job required physical strength and coordination and considerable mechanical ability (think only three women in the whole region). There was absolutely no comparison between our physical strength and that of even mediocre men. We were in demand because we were reliable and worked hard and my friend had family connections, but strength and speed wise we were way behind. (However we were treated with respect and never condescended to by any of the men, who were great blokes.)

I honestly think this has to happen, and they have to win at womens sport, gaining top places, before the world is going to wake up to this injustice.

OP - this doesn't quite address your concern, but let's consider the women's world record for 800m set in 1983 by Jarmila Kratochvílová who ran 1:53.28. It is the longest lasting world record by either man or woman in the sport of athletics. Her time is completely off the scale.

Now, this was the best female athlete in the world. She trained full time and was part of a state-sponsored programme which gave her access to all the best facilities available at the time - in particular as 99.9% of people with any knowledge of the sport now accepts - she had access to all the best SCIENCE AND MEDICINE...

Despite all of that, she ran a time that in would rank her 150th British man in 2018.

So, if all of the dr*gs in world can barely turn the world's best female runner into someone capable of beating a county standard male runner then we should understand that there are other factors at work, not just hormones.

The angle of women’s pelvic joints creates a huge difference in performance.

So true.

I would be interested to know the views of people involved with sport, especially trainers, physios, sports therapists , people involved with sports science in general.
I suspect their anonymous views would be completely different to what they are forced to say in public, for fear of being labeled transphobic

I had a post hormone TW say to me 'my wife can pin me [down] now.' I never met the wife so it's not evidence but the person who said that was over 6'and an ex-bodybuilder. I agree that their own perception of reduced strength, and how they both teacted to a playful wrestle within their relationship, was very likely to be out of whack with observable reality in terms of objective strength.

He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage. I said that's tough shit really. Then I pointed out that women might as well not fucking bother when trans women enter their sports as they almost always win.

It's irrelevant whether they win or not. Every man who gets onto a woman's team takes a place from a woman who deserved to be there.

Take Gavin "Laurel" Hubbard as an example - that man took a spot from a woman who had probably trained her whole life to go the the games. It doesn't matter that he didn't win the gold, he already stole from a woman just by being there. We didn't even HAVE a women's weightlifting team in the games until 2002, already they're willing to take our places away from us? How about instead we cancel the men's team for a few decades and have a transwomen only team, if they're so worried about 'inclusion' and 'fairness'?

If men get to take our spots when they don't make the cut for the men's team due to "physical disadvantage" then where do women go when we are 'physically disadvantaged? If we take medication that lowers our physical abilities, do we get to take over junior boys competitions? Piss off. And do women get to take men's titles if they beat them? A woman won the boston marathon beating every man in the competition, should she get the mens title too? Can she enrol in mens races and take their medals because she's physically advantaged, or does it only work one way? So much hypocrisy.

The women's team isn't just "second chance" for anyone who doesn't make it onto the mens team. Women's bodies function differently. The competition is different, not necessarily better or worse, easier or harder. To act like the women's team is just for people too weak to be on the men's is insulting and degrading. Back before we had women's teams (in the AFL, for example, i'm talking about the Ye Olden Days of 2017) women where not allowed to join the mens team, no matter how good they were. Then we got women's teams and suddenly anyone can play where they want and inclusion is top priority. But only if they have a dick.

I play roller derby. The mens and womens games are completely different. Women use their hips the vast majority of the time. Men use their shoulders because they don't have hips and aren't used to swinging them. It results in a very different game, different strategies, different ways of using you team mates etc. IMO the men I've played against tend to hit harder but less effectively (hitting someone in the shoulder doesn't move them out of the way as well as hitting them in the hips and they tend to try to use strength to compensate).

In weightlifting, women have to contend with their cycle, I've said this on here before but I recreationaly lift weights and it's damn near impossible to do it effectively as a woman if you don't align your training to your cycle. Men don't do that at all. Women and men are playing totally different games. This is probably true of all sports in subtle ways.

Women's teams are for women. If they want a co-ed team (which is what an 'inclusive' women's team is) they need to ADD one. Leave the women's team alone.

Yes absolutely, testosterone is not the only diffence between mares and geldings.

Horse racing isn't my field, but mares generally have a longer back and may also have sightly different pelvis conformation than male horses to suit bearing foals - just as with men and women, and this can have impacts on performance and movement.

Also to generalise (and it is more noticable in perfomance horse breeds with a 'hotter' temperament); geldings (castrated male horses) are much more level and amenable and easier to train than mares, and their performance is not affected by hormone cycles as a mare's often is.

Before anyone takes offence, mares are wonderful and I loved working with and training them, they tend to be a more nuanced and have differences over their cycle and again to generalise to get the best from a mare you have to ask and work with, not just tell like you can with a gelding, but I found them a bit quicker to learn than geldings - train something one day and they come back the next and it is there. Gelding generally took more repetition. Even stallions can be much more easy to easy to 'tell'. Not everyone has the skill or 'time' for mares so this can be why mares do not do so well in some disciplines. They also are needed for breeding where as stallions can have semen collected with little interruption to their training/ career.

NAmaresALT and NAgeldingsALT disclaimer! But many similarities really.

Humans also have pelvis and back shape differences - women tend to have a more curved lower back which can be disadvantageous. Something that other factors might overcome vs another female with a flatter back, but against a tranawoman with additional physical differences that is much less likely.

With humans there is also issues of hormone levels during the menstrual cycle affecting the softness and stretchiness of ligaments which can lead women to be at higher risk of injury at certain times of the month. Not all women will be on birth control pills so the effects of a field of women will be variable and this can affect results and longterm outcomes depending on when events fall in your cycle. Studies on Google etc.

Guardian Article by Emily Rowe, a trans woman playing Women's Australian Rules Football: 'Trans footballers show strength to play despite persistent prejudices
Ten months after Hannah Mouncey was unable to nominate for the AFLW draft, we are still ostracised'
(extract)
“Stop being so strong”. These were the last words I expected to hear from an opposition player, who, in my most recent game playing for the St Kilda Sharks, grabbed me by the collar and drew me aggressively towards her face. My coach had given me the role of being physical, turning every loose ball into a hard ball for our opponents, and I was playing my role well; apparently too well.

It was clear to me that “stop being so strong” was not about how I was playing football. It was about who I am. As a transgender person you get used to the coded language and the snide remarks. You live daily with the micro aggressions, the mockery, the hate. And here on the football field the message was delivered clearly: “Stop being so strong.” From the day we can talk we are taught that men are stronger than women, a fallacy and a farce in equal measure that many people still consider gospel. “Stop being so strong” meant “stop being a man”. Stop expecting to be welcome in women’s spaces. Stop being who you are meant to be.

I recall grabbing my opponent by the collar like she had to me and loudly exclaiming that there’s nothing wrong with being strong. I am proud to be a strong woman. And the strength I bring to the football field every week isn’t measured by muscles that have atrophied to almost nothing as estrogen alters my body into the shape it was always supposed to be" (continues)
www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/14/trans-footballers-show-strength-to-play-despite-persistent-prejudices

For endurance sports they say roughly 10% faster times for men than women.

In strength based competitions though, the advantage is closer to 20%-25%.

But anyway. Even if a study comes up and shows on average transwomen lose 10% from HRT, so what? Every person is unique. There may be ones losing 15% and ones losing 5%. Either create a trans category or stick to your birth sex. Don't railroad 50% of the population for less than 1.

I think this point is really important, Emily Rowe describes feeling that her "muscles that have atrophied to almost nothing as estrogen alters my body" . This is relative, it also perhaps speaks volumes of her perception of women's strength.

Surprise surprise that Graun article isn't open for comments. Emily is not a strong woman, Emily is a fucking cheating bastard who is making a contact sport unsafe for women.

What Fermat said. "Strong woman" my arse.

I find myself thinking of the woman playing who said “Stop being so strong”. Its a shame noone gives her an opportunity to describe how she was feeling at that point in the game.