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Sorry, sport and trans again

(154 Posts)
HairyBallTheorem Mon 12-Feb-18 13:04:01

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

stoneagefertilitydoll Mon 12-Feb-18 13:33:02

unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

I think it's genius, if it actually gives an appreciable effect (which I guess it could - I know that on a motorbike the fins on a helmet really help with head wobble at speed)

Although part of me is surprised that they aren't required to wear a bit more protective gear given they must be going about 30mph, and it's all hard surfaces around them.

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 13:51:10

Sorry but how has this got anything to do with trans people and sport?
Surely, anyone male female or misc' wouldn't be allowed to have an aero afro?

UpstartCrow Mon 12-Feb-18 13:52:47

carrierwaveonly women are being policed more severely for things like cortisone injections and hairstyles than trans people are at all.

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 13:56:27

I don't really follow sports to be honest. From what I see reported in the media men as a sex seem to be more closely scrutinised for doping infringments and suspected cheating than women do. I have no citation for this just personal observations.

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 12-Feb-18 13:59:24

Takes the piss doesn't it. Chapstick and hairdos disqualify women but being a man doesn't hmm

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 12-Feb-18 14:01:14

carrier are you deliberately missing the point?

Men are competing as women and that's ok but a women can't have a hair do.

MaidOfStars Mon 12-Feb-18 14:02:23

Sorry but how has this got anything to do with trans people and sport?
A woman is not allowed to put her hair in a bun because it is determined to give her an unfair advantage.

She could be racing against a born male who has the immense advantage of male puberty, male muscle development and male bone structure. This born male is not deemed to have an unfair advantage.

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 14:04:33

I can see the point that the OP is trying to make. I just don't follow how a woman being creative with her hairdo has anything to do with transgender people. If the lady with the funky hair used to have a doodle I get that, that then there is a link but this seems to be a case of something bad happened - blame the trans!

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 14:06:53

MaidOfStars doesn't the IOC have guidlines on when a trans person can compete in a different catagory? I was under the impression that a change was only possible after a period of time on hormones which would negate any genetic advantages.

UpstartCrow Mon 12-Feb-18 14:07:01

carrierwaveonly you are mistaken. Mens sports are reported more than womens, that would explain your bias.

Lauren Hubbard now wins at women's weightlifting;
www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99233155/new-zealand-transgender-weightlifter-creates-uneven-playing-field-says-australias-weightlifting-chief

Hubbards main oponant Iuniarra Sipaia has been banned after her doctor did not realise cortisone injections were banned for joint injuries
www.samoaobserver.ws/en/13_01_2018/editorial/28770/Could-Iuniarra-Sipaia%E2%80%99s-ban-be-a-conspiracy.htm

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 14:12:30

Thanks for the info. I guess the media bias would explain the difference in case awareness. Interesting from your first link this quote:
"39-year-old was a national junior record-holder in the male 105kg class before she transitioned into a woman in her mid-30s"
If this individual has been on hormones for four years, i guess they met the critera that New Zealand sets. It would be interesting to see the regulations.

MaidOfStars are women speed skaters mandated to have long hair then? She could always shave her hair off an presumably go faster.

stoneagefertilitydoll Mon 12-Feb-18 14:16:22

I was under the impression that a change was only possible after a period of time on hormones which would negate any genetic advantages.

Hormones can't reverse many changes. For instance, nothing's going to bring their height down a couple of inches, change their lung capacity, arm length etc.

Winefred Mon 12-Feb-18 14:16:59

When self-identifying comes in it will be the end of women's sport altogether. Any man who isn't going to win against the men can just get in touch with his inner feelings, declare himself to be a woman, and win all the medals.

MaidOfStars Mon 12-Feb-18 14:20:52

MaidOfStars doesn't the IOC have guidlines on when a trans person can compete in a different catagory? I was under the impression that a change was only possible after a period of time on hormones which would negate any genetic advantages

Like height, leg length, reach, handspan, greater baseline strength, narrow pelvis?

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 14:28:07

MaidOfStars I have no medical training but i think hormone therapy causes atrophy in muscle groups after prolonged use. Also wouldn't a tall weight lifter be at a disadvantage - they have to lift the weight higher after all! Sorry i'll get my coat

MaidOfStars Mon 12-Feb-18 14:47:45

I have no medical training but i think hormone therapy causes atrophy in muscle groups after prolonged use
A male athlete may not be quite a strong as he once was; the gap between him and your average female is massive though, and even if he sheds strength, he has plenty spare. And the biggest atrophy is in those who aren't maintaining muscle; if the male is still training, a lot of strength will be retained.

Also wouldn't a tall weight lifter be at a disadvantage - they have to lift the weight higher after all
I know you said you'll get your coat but this is, in theory, true - taller people, especially where height is in the legs, do have to load bear over a greater distance and move slightly differently to shorter people. However, as the current world record holder in the snatch is 6'6'', we'll assume that height is not ultimately an disadvantage over the massive musculature you can build smile

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 15:11:05

MaidOfStars: Interesting stuff. I was under the impression that after a prolonged period, muscles would settle at a performance level equivalent to that of a non-trans individual of similar age.

I do feel for trans individuals in this situation. If they rely on their sport for income it must be hard. I think gender dysphoria is real and I totally get that they can't continue in their birth gender as it would be a torment. A seperate catagory for trans people seems a bit like segregation to me. I guess the only fair way to my mind would be either follow the IOC/sport's governing body guidelines to the letter if it is established as fair. Alternatively, if the peers of the individual were happy to compete against them by a majority vote i guess that would be a fair benchmark too.

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 12-Feb-18 15:18:29

But that majority vote won't cone from a place of genuine want given women are being harassed and being suspended or losing their jobs for objecting or questioning.

And given regs state they can compete with ten times more testosterone than a woman would ever have then the regs are incredibly unfair.

At some point people have to accept there will be restrictions with their decisions. Not being able to compete as a woman should be one of them. We can't keep pandering to the lies like this.

What about all the girls who will lose out on scholarships as a result of being beaten by boys pretending to be girls.

UpstartCrow Mon 12-Feb-18 15:24:38

carrierwaveonly
Your info is either out of date or you are making assumptions. What makes you think men need to take any hormones?
There are no longer any standards at all for many 'women's' sports. Anyone can compete as a woman in the Winter Olympics.

The photo shows Laurel and Laurels female opponents standing on level ground.
gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/new-zealand-man-gavin-laurel-hubbard-sweeps-womens-weightlifting-competition/

Your sympathy for trans competitors has completely erased your sympathy for female sportswomen.
Separate categories is not segregation any more than separating men and women into categories is 'gender apartheid'. Its the sporting thing to do.

Thisusernamethingistricky Mon 12-Feb-18 15:28:36

Alternatively, if the peers of the individual were happy to compete against them by a majority vote i guess that would be a fair benchmark too.

Well if the alternative is to say 'actually I don't want to compete against someone who has a male body' and get labelled as a transphobic bigot, then I imagine lots of female competitors might be 'happy' to compete against them.

What's your view on Fallon Fox, the MMA fighter, who within three minutes had given their opponent Tamikka Brents an orbital bone fracture, a concussion, and soft tissue injuries to Brents’ head so extensive that they required 8 surgical staples to close?

After the fight, Brents said that she had never experienced strength like that of Fox's.

Thisusernamethingistricky Mon 12-Feb-18 15:33:44

I do feel for trans individuals in this situation. If they rely on their sport for income it must be hard. I think gender dysphoria is real and I totally get that they can't continue in their birth gender as it would be a torment. A seperate catagory for trans people seems a bit like segregation to me.

So your solution is to say, 'women, move over and let male bodied people into your sports, including your contact sports. It is highly likely that you will be at a disadvantage at some point along the way, but we all know that the feelings of male bodied people take precedence so suck it up ladies'.

Nice. How..... progressive.

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 15:36:59

Upstartcow - No assumptions, i looked up the IOC rules;
"2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The
declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum
of four years.
2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum
has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first
competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on
a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12
months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in
women’s competition)." Full details here:
stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Gileswithachainsaw, i completely see where you are coming from but i think the only people who can speak out are the women and men affected. I wouldn't presume to speak for an athelete male or female. Perhaps the real fight is letting people voice their concerns without fear of unreasonable reprocussions.

Thisusernamethingistricky Mon 12-Feb-18 15:39:49

I think gender dysphoria is real and I totally get that they can't continue in their birth gender as it would be a torment.

Also, if this is genuinely the case, then how come there aren't very many trans men trying to compete in men's events?

carrierwaveonly Mon 12-Feb-18 15:41:03

Thisusernamethingistricky. In my option violence is idiotic be it sanctioned sports or behind the pub. Before getting in the ring with someone would be the time to voice concerns.
A professional fighter knows what they are getting into.

I never said women should be put at a disadvantage. My point was in a compassionate society there is room for everyone.

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