Transwomen in sport - I need sources re their advantage

[Lacypants]

I have a male friend who was saying trans women shouldn't be able to compete in boxing, MMA etc against women. I agreed and said that they shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports at all. This is where disagreement arose. He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage. I said that's tough shit really. Then I pointed out that women might as well not fucking bother when trans women enter their sports as they almost always win. I couldn't find any of my sources regarding this, because somehow I've managed to delete all the notes on my phone where I had saved the links. Can anyone help me gather sources again? I tried googling but almost everything that came up was about how trans women deffo don't have an advantage coz that's TRANSPHOBIC.

My stance is that I don't mind what people do with their lives, but it's men's job to make space for men who don't conform to stereotypes, not women's job. So all women shortlists should be all female. Women's prisons should be all female. Women's sports should be all female.

And then we have the likes of Verity Carl Smith, who is currently transitioning to male but who still plays rugby for Rotherham Ladies despite taking testosterone. There are apparently another 2 trans individual playing for this team.

So sport for women has to include women, transmen and transwomen. How's that for a level playing field ? Transwomen get to play with the women because "they are women" and transmen get to play with the women because they are women. Never mind the physical and/or drug induced advantages these groups have. I do however remember a time when both the above would be seen as cheating and unsporting.

The English RU have a policy of separating boys and girls after the age of 12 - presumably for safety reasons - only to go completely against this policy - presumably for non-science based, illogical, convoluted, faux inclusive reasons - when it comes to trans individuals. How does that work ?

The English RU have a policy of separating boys and girls after the age of 12 - presumably for safety reasons - only to go completely against this policy - presumably for non-science based, illogical, convoluted, faux inclusive reasons - when it comes to trans individuals. How does that work ?

Yep. Fecking insanity rules.

Contrasting headlines about Iran's womens football team:

"Iranian womens' football squad includes eight transwomen"
Pink News

"Eight of Iran's women's football team accused of being men"
The Independent

"8 players of the Iranian woman's football team are actually men"
Daily Mail

"Cheating by Trans: here's how many dudes are on iran's women's soccer team"
Daily Wire

Remember everyone-we will soon have the 'ducking under the bar' event that we can compete in! I trust you have all been putting in the training as I have

How could I forget! I can't wait to see it in the Olympics. A real women's sport.

Transgendered participation in sports has been a controversial issue globally. Some suggest they play in their same biological sex group, some say to play in the group you personally identify as, some even go as far as to say no sex group is appropriate. I think biological differences are a major factor to be considered such as hormonal differences. Biologically, transwomen are put in a disadvantage due to their absence of testosterone which develops reproduction tissues, allowing building of muscle and increased height. Of course, this is not to say that men are better at sports compared to women but this defiantly gives them a better chance to succeeded in physical activities. Estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers have been considered but I don't think that is the answer to fairness in sports. Transgender people in sports has to be more vocalized so a universal idea can begin to develop to overcome this challenge.

FloJo still holds the womens 100m record. There are currently 13 men who are faster over the same distance
This is a massive underestimation. In 2017, 744 men ran 100m faster than FloJo.

Sorry I didn't come back, been a busy day with the kids off school, and then one wailing with illness all night.

Thanks for all the links and examples, bookmarking this thread for future reference.

This is the RFU's policy www.englandrugby.com/about-the-rfu/rfu-inclusion-programmes/gender/

I used to play rugby at uni & club level. It never came up as an issue - I'd be happy to play against a trans man, but against a transwoman (especially one who hadn't done any meaningful transition) would be a very different, and dangerous, prospect.

In a different species but with an interesting feature: almost all male National Hunt (jump racing) horses in the UK are castrated after puberty but before going into training. So basically the whole population of male jumps horses is "postop". They still have a median rating 10lb better than the median rating of female jumps horses (10lb is a massive difference- all other things being equal a horse with a 10lb penalty wouldn't even be in camera shot when the winner is passing the post). Most races are open to both sexes and in 2004 the weight allowance for mares was increased from 5lb to 7lb to give them more of a chance ie they have to carry 7lb less than the castrated males. Even so, since then only one mare has won the Champion Hurdle ( 2 miles over small jumps) at the Cheltenham Festival . In that time no mares have won the Gold Cup (3 miles over big jumps). In fact only one mare has ever won the Gold Cup since its inception.

In the lesser grades mares do sometimes win but if females and "postop" males were physically equal then with their 7lb allowance the mares should be cleaning up and winning nearly all the non handicap races. They aren't.

I know it's horses not people, and the geldings don't get given oestrogen but still: it proves that the advantages conferred by a pair of bollocks persist years after they have been chopped off.

"Do you mean Laurel Hubbard? She was not mediocre as a man. She won the NZ junior record. Her story could be told as top NZ junior weightlifter finally fulfils her potential after completing her gender transition."

Utter bollocks.

Laurel was Gavin, with a beard, until the age of 35.

Being (former) NZ junior record holder doesn't mean much, as NZ is shit at weightlifting.

Laurel is a FAILED male weightlifter, who magically became a WORLD championship silver medallist at the age of 39. Bear in mind there is a massive gulf (think tens of kilo grams) between world-class athletes and say, the best in New Zealand, and even more between junior and senior. For every world-class athlete there are 100 who had 'potential' as a junior.

Being a pensioner, in sporting terms, Laurel had ZERO potential, until Laurel declared as a man.

I know it's horses not people, and the geldings don't get given oestrogen but still: it proves that the advantages conferred by a pair of bollocks persist years after they have been chopped off

Yep, contrary to what they're saying on Twitter, taking oestrogen doesn't cause an adult male to wither down to a shadow of his former self. He still has his height, lung and heart capacity and most of his muscle mass. Laurel Hubbard is a perfect example.

'Joe Rogan - Trans Women Should NOT Be Allowed To Fight Women in MMA'

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=V-MLGQtb4OA

Worth watching!

apparently he is a famous commentator on MMA. (not something I have ever wanted to engage with!)

Just watched the first few mins, but it says it exactly for me. I often played against women who were taller, bigger, faster, stronger, but it's a completely different league than having to go up against a man with broader shoulders, bigger bones, less fat padding around the hips!

That's why I'd be ok with going up against a trans man. Even if they do work out, they're still not going to be different from some of the absolute FEMALE units I've faced over the years.

Differences. Biology & safety trumps feelings. Go play with the men.

www.them.us/story/crossfit-games-trans-policy
"In a long-awaited policy change, transgender athletes will be accepted as competitors in the CrossFit Games starting in 2019. CrossFit founder and CEO Greg Glassman made the announcement Friday night at an LGBTQ+ event timed to the launch of this weekend’s 2018 Reebok CrossFit Games at the Alliant Energy Center arena in Madison, Wisconsin.

“In the 2019 CrossFit competitive season, starting with the Open, transgender athletes are welcome to participate in the division with which they identify," said Glassman. "This is the right thing to do. CrossFit believes in the potential, capacity, and dignity of every athlete. We are proud of our LGBT community, including our transgender athletes, and we want you here with us.”

Glassman spoke Friday at “Big Gay Happy Hour,” an event sponsored by LGBTQ+ CrossFit group OUTWOD. The group’s name refers to “WOD,” or Workout of the Day, CrossFit code for the series of exercises that a CrossFit coach gives athletes.

Alyssa Royce, a CrossFit affiliate gym owner and board member at the Out Foundation — the nonprofit that oversees OUTWOD — says she’s worked closely with CrossFit leaders to bring the new policy to life.

“I think it's important to realize that CrossFit is the largest fitness brand in the world, and where we go, others — we hope — will follow,” Royce says.

Out Foundation executive director Will Lanier calls the policy change “magical.”

"Now the sport that we have known and loved has taken the biggest step towards full inclusion,” says Lanier, noting that over 5,000 LGBTQ+ athletes have participated in OUTWOD events. “While our work may never be done, we are one giant step closer.”

The announcement is life-changing for transgender fans of the fitness regimen that’s taken on a cult-like status across the world, with 13,000 affiliate gyms in more than 120 countries worldwide." (continues)

He says they can't compete in men's sports as they are at a physical disadvantage

So? If you choose to do something to your body you have to accept the consequences.

Choose. Which is more important to you? To transition or to excell?

Or does having a penis mean that you get to have your cake and eat it?

Cycling is another area where trans women have competed against women and won. It seems that they didn't quite have it to compete against the men, but as Grumble said above there are disparities between male and female records, but they are still able to beat women.

Women have worked so hard to be taken seriously in sport and now this. It's utterly unfair.

You've hit the nail on the head.
Transwomen do have an unfair advantage over women. Anybody with a working brain can see it's true.
Women may as well not bother with competitive sport anymore.

I often played against women who were taller, bigger, faster, stronger, but it's a completely different league than having to go up against a man with broader shoulders, bigger bones, less fat padding around the hips!

When it comes to sport, Narrower hips give a person a huge advantage over women with a lot of sports.
A man's whole skeletal structure is different to a woman's.
Even short men will still have bones that are heavier and stronger and denser than the tallest woman will ever have.
Even male born skulls are a completely different shape to ours.

Hormones don't change that.

I remember a male friend - a jockey, so you can imagine how little he was - challenging me to a fun arm wrestle. Wow!! I was SHOCKED at his strength.

Luckily I have never been on the receiving end of men's strength before (mmnnn...I notice I put in the word luckily in there - yeah, doing a great job of running the world men!) and I was shocked.

There is NO way men should be in women's sports and as for the people facilitating it...you're disgusting!🤬

A trans woman who competes before and after transitioning should expect to do roughly as well in either, if testosterone is really the thing that makes the difference. Someone who’s middling as a male competitor would become a middling female competitor as a result of hormone treatment. If that’s not happening - if trans women are going from mediocre men to high performing women then surely that’s all the evidence needed to prove that it’s abot more than hormones?

That's a really good point Larry. Everything I've seen is comparing their own before and after performance. If they are the same as women post transition, they should come in the same spot in the field. Except that isn't happening

I think men (and many women) simply underestimate just how much stronger, faster etc men are than women in general. It’s rare that men and women test each other on these things. I can well imagine that a trans person taking hormones would feel wildly different in terms of strength and therefore assume, perhaps understandably, that they are now performing at the level of their transed gender. Because they have no idea how enormous the gulf actually is.

So true Larry. I remember my friend (also a Larry funnily enough😂) kept saying Oh come on, you're not even trying...

But I WAS! I was a good eight inches taller than him. He was just too powerful.

I am a strong woman. My ds was stronger than me by the time he was about 14.

I am a strong woman. My ds was stronger than me by the time he was about 14.

I'm a pretty big lass weight and structure-wise, with extremely strong legs from participation in other sports. Once the lads in my dojo hit about 14/are taller than me, I know I wouldn't win in a real fight. I can beat them at sport sparring if I'm quick off the mark and have managed to psyche them out by being older or a higher belt, but if they really wanted to do damage I'd go down like the sack of spuds I am. My female senseis would last longer due to speed/experience/ advanced technique, but there's a damn good reason we only train against the opposite sex, not compete.

I'm grateful I get to train with men, actually - it means I'm under no illusions that I could take one in a fight on the street, and will follow my instructors' advice to smack 'em hard once and run like hell.