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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Bradley, suspended - Part II

999 replies

LaSquirrel · 30/07/2018 14:00

I thought I would kick off a part II
Part I is here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Bespin · 03/08/2018 07:09

Bowlofbabelfish totally just people looking for a cause for all this people seem to want one maybe one day someone will find one.

OrchidInTheSun · 03/08/2018 07:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

arranfan · 03/08/2018 07:47

Knicknackpaddyflak wrote: men who would have been the bottom of the pecking order amongst other men and would have suffered self esteem issues around meeting those standards/ competing for girlfriends/ dealing with all the deluge of imagery around what men and women should look like. They never challenge men, no matter what those men do, but radiate a powerful belief that they are a superior class to biological women

Yes, so much. That's such a good way of describing which part of a new power hierarchy they move into in Sheila Jeffreys within sex castes: ""When states protect 'gender' in legislation [...] the mechanism, which orders the sex caste system, becomes a matter of state".

Agastache · 03/08/2018 08:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StepBackNow · 03/08/2018 08:12

So cross that this isn't appearing in all the papers yet.

Agastache · 03/08/2018 08:37

That said, I'm getting incredibly frustrated by some posters who feel they have a monopoly on this forum.

It is not about a monopoly. Jeez - I am thrilled that so many women are waking up to this.

It is about not taking a pop at the people that did see through this as you do so.

Can you not even see that?

R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 08:50

""When states protect 'gender' in legislation [...] the mechanism, which orders the sex caste system, becomes a matter of state".

Current situation in Canada reported by National Post:

'Forced to share a room with transgender woman in Toronto shelter, sex abuse victim files human rights complaint
But when Hanna called the Human Rights Legal Support Centre, they said that she was the one engaged in discrimination for describing her new roommate as a 'man'
(extract)
"A woman has filed a human rights complaint against a Toronto shelter for female recovering addicts, claiming staff forced her to share a small double room with a pre-operative male-to-female transgender person.

The formal complaint against the Jean Tweed Centre, which runs Palmerston House, followed Kristi Hanna’s efforts to inquire about her own legal rights in this unusual situation, only to be told by Ontario’s Human Rights Legal Support Centre that, by describing her new roommate as a “man,” Hanna was the one engaged in illegal discrimination.

Hanna, 37, is a former paramedic who has lately worked in the service industry, and has been struggling with the lingering effects of sexual abuse and resulting problems with addiction to alcohol and cocaine. She described herself as an “active ally in the LGBTQ community,” but said this conflict has left her feeling as if vulnerable women are unable to voice their own gender-based rights for fear of violating someone else’s.

“It’s affecting everyone in the house. This can completely ruin your recovery, let alone your safety, let alone your life,” Hanna said in an interview.

She spent two nights sharing the room — constantly looking over to make sure her roommate was still in bed, she said — before taking an indefinite leave from the shelter. Hanna had lived for seven months at the central Toronto facility, located in an old Victorian house, but since last week has been staying with friends on couches, as a “transient,” she said. “Those two nights were hell for me.

In her formal complaint to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario, Hanna alleges the shelter “admitted a male bodied transgender into the safety of my home, bedroom and safe spaces.” She claims this has caused her stress, anxiety, rape flashbacks, symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and sleep deprivation.”
nationalpost.com/news/canada/kristi-hanna-human-rights-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter

the recording of the call confirming the HR Legal Centre's position is important & IMO chilling

nauticant · 03/08/2018 08:51

Sometimes the way people express themselves isn't ideal. It might be a mistake, it might be not having the ability to express oneself in clear terms, for example because of education, it might just be someone being a bit unthinking.

My final word on this is that any TRAs reading must be feeling rather relieved about the direction this long thread took as it approached its end.

Agastache · 03/08/2018 08:55

It's Shrodinger's Complaints Policy.

Complain about the man in your room - you are illegally discriminating and a bigot.
Complain about the woman in your room - there is no problem here.

Where do Canadian women go now when they are victims of male abuse or violence, now that there is an actual Get Out of Jail Free Card?

Agastache · 03/08/2018 08:57

My final word on this is that any TRAs reading must be feeling rather relieved about the direction this long thread took as it approached its end.

Lol, they will just think we are silly women having a squabble. As nobody has told anyone to go DIE IN A FIRE/Doxxed anyone/reported anyone to their employers - it isn't speaking their language.

R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 09:09

Where do Canadian women go now when they are victims of male abuse or violence, now that there is an actual Get Out of Jail Free Card?

cf UK Stonewall recent report.

Ruth Hunt's introduction:
Ruth Hunt, Stonewall
"Since the Government announced their commitment to reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004, trans people have faced an onslaught of damaging attacks in the national media and online.

Much of this coverage has focused on particularly emotive issues – whether based on evidence or not. One of these issues
is single-sex spaces for women, including women-only domestic and sexual violence services. Some commentators have
focused on the view that supporting trans women in these services might compromise the integrity of these safe spaces, or that
reforming the GRA would mean violent men could access these spaces more easily.

One thing that has felt stark watching this unfold is that the voices of the professionals delivering these services have largely
been missing from these reports, despite the fact that their services have been made a focus of coverage about GRA reform
and used by some to substantiate their opposition to change.
It’s important that these conversations include people with direct experience of delivering these services. That’s why we’ve
commissioned nfpSynergy to interview representatives of 15 organisations who provide and oversee those services. We
wanted policy makers and the wider public to understand the everyday reality of how they operate. We needed to hear their
voices and find out if and how they support trans women who have experienced domestic and sexual violence.

What follows is a range of views and experiences, directly from service providers. We want their contributions to help move the
conversation towards an evidence-based account of what’s happening in the sector right now, and are extremely grateful to
them for sharing their expertise, and wide range of views and experiences.

What we’ve found is that, contrary to the panicked headlines, organisations across the sector have already been supporting
trans women for some time. This support is vital because, in the past 12 months alone, one in six trans women have
experienced domestic violence. Many providers are taking proactive steps to ensure their services are trans-inclusive, and
services are developing a growing body of best practice in this area.
Some participants in this research recalled instances
where challenges arose, and described how they managed these with sensitivity and common sense to ensure that every
woman in their service felt welcome and safe.

Many organisations told us that reforming the GRA to simplify the process of getting a Gender Recognition Certificate would
have no relevance to how they run their service. Participants overwhelmingly told us that services’ thorough risk assessment
processes would continue to safeguard against an incident of a violent man attempting to access services, while ensuring that
all women receive the support they need.

This report isn’t showcasing one view, or one narrative, about trans inclusion – we wanted to reflect where these service
providers are now. Several participants expressed concern that there are trans survivors who are being let down when seeking
support, with some likening their experiences to the struggles faced by many black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) women,
lesbians, bi women and disabled women seeking support. Those participants pointed to the huge progress services have made
in including all survivors, whatever their background or identity, and made clear their determination that the current debate
about trans survivors won’t stop them providing the most effective support they can to them."

www.stonewall.org.uk/supporting-trans-women-domestic-and-sexual-violence-services

Ucantarguewistupid · 03/08/2018 09:18

Then let's help get rid of that relief.

J B has proved single handedly proven that self ID is a seriously bad idea that needs to be extinguished now. They have made clear that it is an opportunity to abuse and terrorise women and girls. Flashers target females young and old. Flashing is also a gateway crime. J B has demonstrated we should have the right to challenge anyone in our space that we feel should not be there.

J B has made clear that a penis is indeed a penis and not a vagina in disguise. They have demonstrated that they are keen to use their 'lady dick' in exactly the same way some sexually deviant males use it.

J B has made clear we need to allow critical debate.

Gender is a construct and by all means let's smash the pigeon holes.

Sex is a fact. Let's keep spaces for those with differing anatomy seperrate. And until MEN can learn to be more tolerant - a third space for those males who veer towards the stereotype more commonly associated with women.

Apparently it is men who have attacked trans people which causes them to want to come into our spaces for safety.

It is men and trans people who attack women.

HeresIdea852 · 03/08/2018 09:19

Did Stonewall consult with those who hold the keys to the jails? The prison governors?

Ucantarguewistupid · 03/08/2018 09:26

I don't know that I trust Stonewall. Anyone else doing research & consultations on a large scale and willing to be open to scrutiny?

R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 09:29

THere was a thread about the Stonewall study which I was going to link to but see it was taken down (PBP). I have just started a new one as DV is such an important issue & as suggested by MN mods on the thread deletion post:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325388-Stonewalls-Report-on-domestic-and-sexual-violence-services-Interviews-with-professionals-in-the-sector

R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 09:41

Apologies, missed alternative current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325247-Stonewall-report-into-domestic-and-violent-services

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 03/08/2018 09:44

The thing is, the people who work for charities, when asked, might not feel able to be honest about what they really think.
In some fields it REALLY not easy to point out the Emporer is nekkid.
I absolutely think transwomen need places to go if they are abused. Women set up and ran their own shelters ffs. It not like they said "it would be quite good to have somewhere to escape male violence" and the powers that be magicked up refuges Hmm It's took fundraising, campaigning, work. Women took other women into their homes before that (and sometimes they still do).
Transsexuals might have historically been accessing these services, at the discretion of the service and on an individual basis but with this push for fetishist men to be accepted as women I just don't see how that can continue.

Ruth Hunt:
Several participants expressed concern that there are trans survivors who are being let down when seeking support, with some likening their experiences to the struggles faced by many black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) women
Ruth, if you are reading that's just offensive. And stupid. Black and brown women are, yanno, women and as such can access womens refuges. Please stop pretending men are the same as women of colour.

LaSquirrel · 03/08/2018 10:01

Jess Bradley is still going to be key player in this consultation - but not for the reasons they initially believed

That sums up the situation nicely, TimeLady

Or Bradley could be described as an 'own goal'.

OP posts:
EmpressOfSpartacus · 03/08/2018 10:02

Ruth Hunt: Several participants expressed concern that there are trans survivors who are being let down when seeking support, with some likening their experiences to the struggles faced by many black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) women
Ruth, if you are reading that's just offensive. And stupid. Black and brown women are, yanno, women and as such can access womens refuges. Please stop pretending men are the same as women of colour.

And it also completely ignores the plight of a Muslim woman who might find herself expected to share a bedroom / shower area with someone her religion says she can't share that space with.

I expect Ruth Hunt agrees with LM that such women should just be "re-educated".

R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 10:08

I expect Ruth Hunt agrees with LM that such women should just be "re-educated".

twitter.com/AlfredBelpaire/status/1024724123145007104

Jess Bradley, suspended - Part II
R0wantrees · 03/08/2018 10:13

Merseyside Police FOI response:

"In the 2017/18 financial year,
five Crimes have been identified
which relate to sexual offences
occurring in a unisex toilet or
changing facility.
These comprise:
4 X Voyeurism
1 X Rape Of Female"

Additional note: "The search returned 62 records which were then manually reviewed in more detail (including a read-through of witness statements) to try and determine whether or not the circumstances were relevant to this request. Some were still unclear as there was just a reference, for example, to the offence occurring “in the toilets” or “in the changing rooms”. These have not been counted. Even where a unisex facility has been counted, its relevance may be tenuous – for example, a changing cubicle in a clothes shop which is available for use by persons of either gender. It should also be understood that other relevant records may be held which were not captured by the keyword search method employed"

www.merseyside.police.uk/media/1508630/sexual-offences-in-unisex-toilets-dm2018-0475.pdf

Agastache · 03/08/2018 10:15

How many rapes is too many?

I say one. One rape is too many.

This is what we mean when we say that these rights are throwing women under a bus.

Why should women suffer rapes because of men's feelings?

Bowlofbabelfish · 03/08/2018 10:18

And it also completely ignores the plight of a Muslim woman who might find herself expected to share a bedroom / shower area with someone her religion says she can't share that space with.

There will be a removal/retreat of women of faith from the public sphere. I’d like to think there will be outrage but I fear there won’t - there are enough male interests to limiting women’s freedoms as it is.

So our Muslim/orthodox Jewish etc sisters will just quietly disappear.

DanaBarrett · 03/08/2018 10:21

I’ve heard round and about that the majority of the women’s charities have had no option but to be trans inclusive as funding is determined (in part) on their ‘willingness’ to be inclusive.

I’m concerned that no-one thinks the opinions of the women expected to share the shelters with transwomen are worth canvassing.

nauticant · 03/08/2018 10:22

Marginalised women become further marginalised.
To pander to men forcing their way into women's spaces.
Cheered on by lefty dudebros.

Irony really is dead.

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