Excellent counter-view to ROGD

[garam]

Usually when you see hashtags about a diagnosis that doesn't stem from the medical establishment, you would be right to be dubious.
The anti-vaxxers are a good comparison.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1021324454067163136.html

Are you not interested in finding out what causes such a distressing condition as gender dysphoria? A condition which causes its sufferers to self harm and contemplate suicide.
That suggests we would want to prevent it, and trans people might argue that is "literal genocide"...

IcyNoll, anime gets pretty dark, pretty quickly. There is some hardcore porn not very far below the surface.

It is real. But not necessarily innate.

The question is if it was easier/supported/expected that you might be radically gender non compliant and you might hate large parts of your body and that was considered just normal , something to get over rather than a drama, then just perhaps we would not see the huge rise in people saying they are trans. we would not see treatement and medicalisation for what is really just part and parcel of being human.

How much is innate and how much is caused by society, social media etc offering trans as a ooh you are so special , poor you, solution when the default first solution should be supporting people to be themselves without needing to medicalise and label them

Children who are pandered too tend not to grow up as strong happy adults. sometimes they need help to understand things. And children should never be told there is something so badly wrong with their body that it needs medical suppprt unless that is really true.

I don't know how to say this, but trans adults, are ex-trans kids.
I do know how to say this, garam, but you are dead wrong. Most ex-trans kids are homosexual adults, not trans adults.
Trans adults understand this issue perfectly well, and are without doubt the most important voices in this debate.
Hence why this is rubbish.

they are unrelated.

No they can’t be.

You’re saying that a significant drop in the patient pool occurred post 2013. You’re saying that at that point it was magically possible to differentiate a GNC child from a trans child (evidence for how this is done would be nice.) so your patient pool should have dropped by that 80% who you say were never trans but just GNC.

So what you should see even with massively increased awareness and more kids ‘coming out’ (which is disingenuous because trans is not a sexual orientation) is a drop in numbers.

If that happened against a background of increased awareness etc you’d see a general rise with a drop at that point, where the weeding out of GNC kids occurred.

But you don’t. You see no drop, and a huge sustained rise.

If that rise was due to better awareness it wouldn’t be that shape either.

So I ask again - how do you account for the shape of that graph?

I don’t think autogynephilic heterosexual men are more important than teenage girls.
Neither do I, in fact I think they are two entirely separate groups with almost nothing in common and should be treated as such

I'm still waiting for someone to explain 12 girls transitioning simultaneously.

And the headteacher who said she had a further 12 or 15, was it, transitioning over 18 months.

As that bulimia article pointed out, it's no good saying that these children were always there, but acceptance is making them come out.

Parents would have known if their children were wildly distressed about their sex

Noone said having a better diagnosis makes the number of actual trans kids increase, why would you think that?

garam You said the studies showing desistance were all pre-2013, and now the diagnostic criteria were more accurate. Since 2013 the numbers of referrals of children to gender clinics has increased enormously.

More accurate diagnosis to remove the not-really-trans children should decrease the numbers. So why have the numbers increased instead?

I’m very interested in the accusations that professionals citing Freud are somehow poor doctors.

"Yes, I was prepared to accept that deviantART wasn't necessary what I thought, hence me saying I didn't speak Japanese."

DeviantArt

Deviant Art

Two words. Both English.

I'm assuming you probably don't speak Awabakal either. No idea why that means you couldn't type "DeviantArt" into Google, find out what it is.

Called, you know, basic research?

Oh wait, just a flimsy pretext to engage in mudslinging.

You got caught.

Response: engage in more mudslinging.

But thanks for the opportunity to let me highlight the absurdities contained in your post. Much appreciated.

Whilst I don't expect the usual faces to accept a word of it, thats not the point.

The point is for other people who are open minded to have another viewpoint on here.

I completely agree. I think you and icy should express your viewpoint over all this, as often as possible.

And link to Twitter.

And you should especially complain that it can't be a real thing, because doctors haven't given it a hashtag.

Like I said, no GIS is pushing or starting hashtags of ROGD, in fact no medical establishment is doing that.

I don’t think there’s any evidence at all that the increased social acceptability of being out as gay or lesbian had any impact on the number of people who actually are gay or lesbian. That remains pretty static across times and places.

They’re just not comparable. I’m almost embarrassed for you garam- the poor grasp of history, statistics, biology and psychology shown on that thread is glaringly obvious. What is it that upsets you about the term “ROGD”?

Sarahcarer writes:
The earlier studies were before puberty blockers were issued so liberally. Puberty blockers prevent desistance.
And OldCrone writes:
Because you have to be very sure before medicating children with irreversible treatments.
Chillingly, #1 disproves #2. They don't need to be sure, because nobody desists after blockers. There is no going back.

IcyNoII

I don't type. I use speech recognition. And that's how deviantART appeared. All by itself.

Try it.

Autogynephilia is not 'mudslinging', nor absurd.

It has been responsible for the devastation of the lives of many women and children.

The trans widows thread on here is a testament to that. Anyone can google trans widows and see the women's viewpoint. And then google #transgirls, to see the men's.

It's also well established that men who transition late, yearn for a more feminine appearance, which they encourage in younger transitioners. Numerous evidential websites.

Hence it's relationship to ROGD.

AGP and cross dressing fetishism, is a large part of the reason why women are objecting to self ID.

When 'transgender' was confined to transsexuals, the numbers were small, and this aggressive, misogynistic campaigning was unheard of.

"I don't type. I use speech recognition. And that's how deviantART appeared. All by itself.

Try it."

I just did. Sounds like "Deviant Art" slightly run together when run through text-to-speech. Definitely sounds English. Doesn't sound Japanese. Just ran a Google search on the term using voxrecog.

Now writing this section using voice to text software. Deviant Art. DeviantArt. deviantArt.

Back to typing.

Nope. No Japanese there.

So we're back to the explanation that you were mudslinging hoping that people will think 'deviant' means something naughty.

tut tut

When 'transgender' was confined to transsexuals, the numbers were small, and this aggressive, misogynistic campaigning was unheard of.
This x100

Bowlofbabelfish.

So if say.... 10% of trans people came out up to 2013, by removing the GNC kids from the diagnostic criteria would not stop the next 10/20/30% or whatever coming out, and the numbers will keep increasing, as more and more people come out as trans.

There still could be a long way to go before we see true numbers.

But the elephant in the room is, we have NO idea how many people identify as trans and have yet to come out, we have no established accurate numbers of the current trans community, it is no more than guesswork and juggling vaguely related numbers to arrive at a figure, which can still vary wildly.

Until we establish numbers, and non-trans people stop trying to corrupt trans surveys, and we see an eventual slowing down and stabilisation of the population, then there will be something to discuss.

But fake diagnosis of ROGD that doesn't actually exist, and does nothing to clarify the picture or information needed to give all kids whatever support they need to figure out any issues trans or not..

*SophoclesTheFox
I don’t think there’s any evidence at all that the increased social acceptability of being out as gay or lesbian had any impact on the number of people who actually are gay or lesbian. That remains pretty static across times and places. *

Is this satire? Are you trolling the gender-crits? this is comedy gold!!

If it isn't, and you actually believe what you just typed, then god bless you, I wish you all the luck in the world....

WHY are you saying that ROGD doesn't exist in the face of people saying that their child has
gender dysphoria
which had
rapid onset?

SophoclesTheFox
If what you attempting to say is that the actual numbers of lgbt people were the same, but publicly it was lower in none supportive societies..... then yes..... and then they came out and increased until the numbers actually lgbt, matched the numbers that were publicly lgbt, because of increased social acceptability, so we agree, or go back to previous message and start again.

Dear Lord, IcyNoII. Are you a teenager?

When I say deviantART it comes out as deviantART. It just does.

The name of the person who wrote the thread in the OP takes you to an anime site. The name of the person in the opening post is Japanese.

I said I don't speak Japanese, so it might not be anything. But I was unsurprised that it was anime. I still am.

The number of late transitioning men who are interested in anime is huge. It's almost guaranteed.

None of this is a surprise.

But in the interests of this thread, what is your explanation for ROGD? And 12 girls acquiring it simultaneously?

Garam, I expect you think you are making sense, but I'm not getting much information from your posts.

What do you find comical about the % of gay and lesbian people being pretty consistent?

WHY are you saying that ROGD doesn't exist in the face of people saying that their child has
gender dysphoria
which had
rapid onset?

Because it doesn't exist, it is not a diagnosable condition.

It means they were in the closet............... then they came out.

Literally that is what some people are terming ROGD and thinking it has any weight whatsoever because of gender-crit forums..

why is that funny?

Whether it’s socially acceptable or not, The population of gay men and lesbian women is fairly constant. The treatment varies. The orientation is across times and cultures. And we can see that from history.

I don’t think you’ve understood my point, to be honest.

f it isn't, and you actually believe what you just typed, then god bless you, I wish you all the luck in the world....

The proportion of people who are homosexual is fairly constant across cultures and time. The only thing that changes is how accepting a society is and how visible that population can safely be - the actual rates of people being gay is fairly constant.

As you’d expect, it being inbuilt, and natural.

Are you saying the incidence of homosexuality changes? Because that’s what your post implies, but as PPs say it’s not terribly clear...