Excellent counter-view to ROGD

[garam]

Usually when you see hashtags about a diagnosis that doesn't stem from the medical establishment, you would be right to be dubious.
The anti-vaxxers are a good comparison.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1021324454067163136.html

garam

Most people who transition later in life are men. Most of the teenagers presenting as trans are girls.

80% of children who present as trans desist by adulthood. Do you suggest we sacrifice them for the sake of the 20%?

Now do you see the problem of the "trans kids grow up to be trans adults" narrative?

I don't know how to say this but whilst tans adults probably were trans kid, not all kids who appear trans will be trans adults

probably by a huge factor

I probably meet all the criteria to be trans, but I am not. I am mentally stable and understand that I am a woman just because woman means what my body is. Nothing more and nothing less.

Because of course when you go to the doctors, they don’t take a history any more, they just ask for your history in x characters or fewer then give you a hashtag.

#It is known.

Nothing to see here ... move along ...

(Tavistock & Portman figures)

Trans adults understand this issue perfectly well, and are without doubt the most important voices in this debate.

Why? The push I see is for demedicalisation for adults, who are then lobbying for medicalisation early for children.

That doesn’t sit well with safeguarding. It doesn’t sit well with medical ethics and it doesn’t reflect good clinical practice.

Patient lobby groups for any indication should have a voice. However that voice should not be heard to the detriment of evidence based practice, of research, nor of the safeguarding of children.

Can you justify why a patient group should be heard over the law, safeguarding rules and medical ethics?

There have been a number of discussions, articles etc this week focussed on Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD).

Twitter #ROGDWEEK2018

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3315676-ROGDWEEK2018

You're right that it's important to listen to people who have personal experience.

Given that the biggest growth in referrals - by a huge margin - is young girls, it would be great if we could all agree that it's vital that the voices of people who were once young girls themselves (one might call them "women" as a useful shorthand) are centred in this issue.

garam Even assuming that some adult trans people suffered dysphoria a children, and it seems many didn't, that doesn't rule out ROGD as a modern phenomenon exacerbated by social media and aggressive TRA campaigning- which includes the suggestion that gender non conforming kids are trans.

Two pyschologists connected to the Tavi wrote a paper last week, citing Freud as references for their hypothesis.

And...?

I’ve read many papers which cite Freud, in fact students I worked with last semester were using his work and applying it to PTSD.

Are you suggesting all of Freud’s theories and work are obsolete?

The point is for other people who are open minded to have another viewpoint on here

I don't mean to be rude garam but the only people I see make statements like this are anti-vaxxers, homeopathy practioners and reiki healers.

Scientists generally (not always) have pretty open minds. The whole scientific process is about testing one's work to see if you can replicate results and if you can't, exploring new ideas until you get a result that can be replicated reliably. We wouldn't have made much progress if new ideas weren't considered. But if those ideas are a load of rubbish, well.....

That twitter thread is woeful. I'd be embarrassed to put it forward as evidence of ... well ... of something.

The main thrust seems to be that ROGD can't exist because if it did then that would be mean.

Seriously TRAs, if this is the best you can do, doesn't it tell you something?

Look out for the process and mantra everyone:
Children should be introduced to the idea of being trans very young
Only trans adults understand your child (your child being any child who has considered they may be trans, after they have been introduced to the idea)
You do not understand your child
If you don't follow the trans rules around pronouns, names and toilets you are making your child unsafe
They are likely to commit suicide
You are a safeguarding concern
The children are heralded as brave
They are showered with "love" by their new online trans community
They are told this is "who they are"
This is "who they have always been"

I think important voices to hear in all this are people like this woman, who talks about her journey into the transgender cult, then her subsequent desistance.
4thwavenow.com/2018/03/12/baptised-in-fire-a-relieved-desisters-story/

I don’t think autogynephilic heterosexual men are more important than teenage girls.

Yeah, it's so like grooming it's unreal. Always on the hunt for recruits. Who must be young. Who must be separated from those who protect them.

Peach Yoghurt, YouTube video:
'This could have been a transgender timeline if I was born later. I'm very happy with my womanhood now. I enjoy the freedom to be my own woman.'

*OldCrone

80% of children who present as trans desist by adulthood. Do you suggest we sacrifice them for the sake of the 20%?

Now do you see the problem of the "trans kids grow up to be trans adults" narrative?*

There is simply no evidence for the 80% desistance myth.

All studies are pre-2013. The diagnostic criteria changed in 2013 precisely because GNC kids were caught up with actual trans kids.

Thats how it works, there were clearly problems with the earlier studies that were identified along with flawed methods of calculating who persisted and desisted, understanding has improved.

This is the thing, the people who bang on about desistance and AGP, are clinging to outdated understandings and flawed studies.

Which is why anything more modern than these studies is roundly dismissed on here, and a couple of ancient flawed/debunked studies are clung onto for dear life, the reasoning why is clear....

You lack basic understanding of the way medical communities work to develop strategies for treatment, how they gather evidence and apply scientific rigour to their workings.

I’m embarrassed for you.

It's gender dysphoria.

With rapid onset.

What is your beef with calling that 'rapid onset gender dysphoria'?

garam
So how do you explain the enormous rise in girls presenting as trans since 2014? See the post by PencilsInSpace above.

If your explanation was correct, then the numbers would have dropped afer 2013, not increased massively.

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld wrote - "two psychologists who immediately contradicted their use of the term by showing that the person in question continued in their transition and was perfectly happy not only with doing so, but happy with their transition on all measured outcomes."

Is part of the definition of ROGD (rapid onset gender dysphoria) that ROGD patients must always be unhappy about transitioning and therefore de-transition must always occur?

Is the case that you mention supposed to be evidence that you think proves that rapid onset is impossible?

Yup, and there has never been anyone embrace a religious ideology in a short time, and go all fire and brimstone seemingly overnight. No one has ever been manipulated into a cult, or radicalised online. No one has ever embraced flat earth, or dinosaur/evolution denial.

Nope, those things are innate, and folk never change their minds as they grow.

The earlier studies were before puberty blockers were issued so liberally. Puberty blockers prevent desistance. Without them and without the social media pressure I suspect rates would be continuing at the same level. Of course if you decide that anyone who desists is GNCand not trans after all then your desistence rate will be 0%