Excellent counter-view to ROGD

[garam]

Usually when you see hashtags about a diagnosis that doesn't stem from the medical establishment, you would be right to be dubious.
The anti-vaxxers are a good comparison.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1021324454067163136.html

All studies are pre-2013. The diagnostic criteria changed in 2013 precisely because GNC kids were caught up with actual trans kids.

As old crone says, if that were the case the line on the graph ROwan posted would be going down.

And it’s not is it? Why is that? You’ve just said you’ve cut down your patient pool, but your numbers are up HUGELY.

Why?

Exactly sarah

Duck her! If she’s a witch, she floats. If she doesn’t, she was innocent.

Très modern.

Why’s the line on that graph going up garam?

garam

The diagnostic criteria changed in 2013 precisely because GNC kids were caught up with actual trans kids.

Another question for you, that I have yet to see a satisfactory answer to is how do you tell who are "actual trans kids"? The only reasonable answer I've seen is the ones who are still suffering from gender dysphoria as adults if they are not medicated as children.

What are the diagnostic criteria which can be applied to children with an accuracy which is close to certainty? Because you have to be very sure before medicating children with irreversible treatments.

Interesting article about the process of social contagion with regards bulimia nervosa.
'The Strange, Contagious History of Bulimia'
By
Lee Daniel Kravetz

"The theory of media’s culpability in the spread of social contagions is not a new one. Psychologists studying the developmental psychopathology of eating disorders have led dozens of controlled experiments finding a near-perfect link between mass media and eating disorder symptoms. The question in my mind now isn’t whether media have a part to play in replicating social contagions; if we were able to purge ourselves of certain conduits of influence like media itself, we might have an easier time stopping transmission. Rather, I question just how big a part media actually play in spreading them."
www.thecut.com/article/how-bulimia-became-a-medical-diagnosis.html

Kravetz is the author of 'Strange Contagion: Inside the Surprising Science of Infectious Behaviors and Viral Emotions and What They Tell Us About Ourselves'

Who is the youtuber who detransitioned? And who isn't allowed to talk about it?

I saw a couple of her videos last week, and I'm horrified at the silencing of people who "changed their minds" or, in other words, were diagnosed incorrectly.

If no-one is allowed to talk about it, and no-one is allowed to research it (see James Caspian), and even a hint of gender non-conformity is affirmed, welcomed, and called brave (and comes with a whole host of celebrations and rights that would be removed if the child admitted to making a mistake), how can anyone know anything factual about how many are misdiagnosed/mistaken/influenced?

It goes against the mantra that all transpeople were born that way, and to suggest it was rapid onset might lead people to examine social and cultural influences, which is not allowed, especially when those social and cultural influences are transpeople and translobbyist themselves. That’s why they jumped on the LGB bandwagon. Born this way has been a powerful tool convincing right-wing people to be more accepting of homosexuality, only the gay recruiting they were afraid of wasn’t happening, where as the trans recruiting is definitely happening.

Here for example is an article showing that no-one is allowed to talk about (1) detransitioning and (2) alternative treatment than affirmation.

Now I know some of the "alternatives" are alt-right Christian fundamentalist bonkers stuff, but surely there's a middle ground?

Waves arm in air....

I'm an example of someone whose (unfortunately still but working on divorce) married to a guy who has been very rapid with his onset Gender Dysphoria.

Can I add my voice to those others, including his doctors, who KNOW, this is a thing, it exists!

Sorry my experience doesn't match your imagination of my experience.

I don't know how to say this, but trans adults, are ex-trans kids

What, even autogynephiles who fetishise females? And yet we are constantly called transphobic for worrying about mixed sex accommodation between girls and boys who say they're trans.

Trans logic, though.

garam

How do you account for the 10 girls coming out simultaneously at a well known girls' school?

Are you also of the opinion that all the mothers knew each other, lived in the same street, and drank the same water?

Given that the biggest growth in referrals - by a huge margin - is young girls, it would be great if we could all agree that it's vital that the voices of people who were once young girls themselves (one might call them "women" as a useful shorthand) are centred in this issue

twitter.com/itsjillgardner/status/1022554161907412999

"Is part of the definition of ROGD (rapid onset gender dysphoria) that ROGD patients must always be unhappy about transitioning and therefore de-transition must always occur?"

ROGD Trumpeteers: 'There's no such thing as trans. Trans kids are just confused GNC lesbians (if we remember, we occasionally talk about GNC gay men as well, but mostly we don't). "Trans" kids catch the trans from social media.'

Two psychologists: 'We're desperately going to try and shoebox this case into a term that has no medical or scientific backing.'

Reality: Trans kid is trans. Trans kid grows up to be happy trans adult. No actual sign or evidence in any of the documentation provided that the trans kid actually had any signs of 'rapid onset' anything, plentiful signs that trans kid received education from multiple sources about transgender issues and, from there, recognised something in themselves that they were already experiencing, but had no conceptual understanding of before that point, that would allow them to adequately express that they were transgender.

My 20 year old young adult child and ROGD: no gender non-conforming history, quite the opposite; experiences a number of very difficult and traumatising personal life events between 16-19; becomes a lesbian at 19.

Things start going wrong a couple of months after she turns 20, when she is back living at home after finally having to give up a long- cherished ambition. *
*
She is without a direction, looking for a new identity, and has not given herself time or space to work through her previous difficulties and issues.

She spends vast amounts of time on the internet and starts to isolate herself from the family.

Month 1 says she "hates" her breasts.
Month 2 'comes out' as Non Binary/they.
Month 5 goes to the GP for referral to the gender clinic.
Month 11 changes her birth name and 'comes out' as trans/they/he.
Month 14 has first NHS 'gender specialist' diagnosis of gender dysphoria.
Month 17 has 2nd diagnosis of gender dysphoria from Tavistock clinic.
Month 18 starts on testosterone and is put on waiting list for double mastectomy.

Don't you DARE tell me we're making this shit up.

meetthe

Why is the line on the graphs going upwards then?

If what you and garam say is true, it should be steady, and have experienced a decline post 2013.

OldCrone
garam
So how do you explain the enormous rise in girls presenting as trans since 2014? See the post by PencilsInSpace above.

If your explanation was correct, then the numbers would have dropped afer 2013, not increased massively.

they are unrelated.

Now there is more resources and better attitudes towards trans acceptance more and more actual trans people will come out.

Noone said having a better diagnosis makes the number of actual trans kids increase, why would you think that? Thats precisely the type of attitude the opening link illustrates...... and you have given a prime example of that......brilliant.

We have no idea exactly how many trans kids there are, until there is a plateau everything is guesswork.

In other times trans women going for referrals outnumbered trans men, there is no equilibrium established.

When we see a plateau then we can consider if there is a bias......

Same with homosexuals, until the numbers hit a plateau we had no idea what the numbers were.

Also the 'overwhelming increase in trans men' being referred to GIC's isnt actually that overwhelming at all, in a country of 65+billion people, and merely a huge sounding percentage increase on a not very startling actual figure, given the stats we have from around the world, the likelihood is that they still have a fair bit to go for all trans groups before there is a settling point

And the name also seems to be the name of website showing a collection of so called 'deviant art'? Mostly anime?

I don't speak Japanese, so it might mean something else entirely. But I have to say, a familiar feeling of predictability and tedium came over me.

Please indicate what kind of credibility this person has???

MeetTheNew and garam

What is a 'trans kid'? How do you diagnose a transgender child? What signs do they show that they are trans? How are you sure that they are 'really' trans and it is not just a phase or a reaction to trauma?

garam

What is your explanation for 12 girls simultaneously?

Now there is more resources and better attitudes towards trans acceptance more and more actual trans people will come out.

So you have no concerns that a large number of the teenage girls saying they are trans have significant other issues like autism or being victims of sexual assault? You see that as being insignificant?

Now there is more resources and better attitudes towards trans acceptance more and more actual trans people will come out.

Read this article that R0wantrees linked to
www.thecut.com/article/how-bulimia-became-a-medical-diagnosis.html

“It makes you wonder if maybe bulimia wasn’t a new eating disorder, that it was always there and people just didn’t notice it or talk about it before your paper came out,” I offer.

Russell demurs politely. If the hidden afflicted numbered as overwhelmingly high as they now seem, surely the condition would have made itself known well before he — or anyone, for that matter — identified it. “You might suggest it required somebody to come along and put two and two together before people felt safe talking about bulimia, but I don’t believe that.

“Until then,” he continued, “the disorder was extremely rare. But after 1980, it became widespread in a very short period of time. Once it was described, and I take full responsibility for that with my paper, there was a common language for it. And knowledge spreads very quickly.”

With this knowledge, Russell’s discovery took on characteristics of a pandemic that was set to claim 30 million people, but neither he nor anyone could do a thing at that point to stop it. He was confronted, he says, by a problem of entropy, a gradual decline into disorder with devastating implications for social contagions: once they are out, they are virtually impossible to rein it back in again.

Are you denying that social contagion exists as well?

I know transactivists can't be expected to be anything other than oppositional. Until they accept that biological sex is significant, that will continue.

But there is also the, quite understandable, lack of comprehension about being raised female.

Because it's not just that they disagree with what women are saying, they have no idea of the magnitude of women who totally get ROGD.

Even if they haven't been diagnosed with it, it's like a very familiar pair of slippers. We've been there.

The fact that they think they can persuade women is, like all this, very telling.

And the name also seems to be the name of website showing a collection of so called 'deviant art'? Mostly anime?

You mean, this DeviantArt:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviantArt

One of the biggest sites featuring original photography, digital art, traditional art, literature, and filmmaking, and also one of the world's largest repository of free-to-use stock imagery and photography.

Got it's name because "DeviantArt started as a site connected with people who took computer applications and modified them to their own tastes, or who "deviated" the applications from the original designs. As the site grew, members in general became known as "deviants" and submissions as "deviations""

I have to say, a familiar feeling of predictability and tedium came over me as more mudslinging and slurring of people was made on this board by a regular contributor to a Mumsnet board who couldn't be bothered to do basic research, par for the course so it is.

This is the thing, the people who bang on about desistance and AGP, are clinging to outdated understandings and flawed studies.

Sure. Autogynephilia doesn't exist right?

Which is why, if I go on Instagram or twitter and search pretty much any trans hashtag, there are absolutely no trans women posing erotically with their breasts and a hint of their penis on show, perhaps. And also if I go on dedicated trans forums, there are absolutely no men on there talking about wanting bottom surgery so they can participate in violent gang rape fantasies more easily or generally be more sexually submissive ('3 holes are better than 2!').

Nope, autogynephilia is a complete myth. And the moon is made of cheese.

There is no such thing as 'genuinely being the opposite sex to your sex'. No matter how 'accepting' and indeed loving we are towards non-conforming children, they can never become the opposite sex, though they can impair the function of their natural body.