Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

Racial segregation was inflicted upon ethnic minorities to keep them seperate because they lived in a racist society. Women's spaces were created by women to keep themselves seperate because we live in a sexist society.

Nightie trying

LinoleumBlownapart I'm a heterosexual man and I have no interest in dating a man. Not now and not later. It's not a problem that I'm working towards solving and I don't regard it as progress to pressure people into sex that they don't want.

On a completely different subject (and it is a different subject) I have no problem with dating someone who doesn't follow gender norms. I've dated women who wore trousers for example (shocking I know) and women who didn't wear an apron. Women who had jobs, opinions and ambitions. Some of them didn't even own a pink frock.

So I agree with discarding all the stereotypes. It will not make any difference to anyone's sex though and without them trans have nothing to transition to so it's more of a problem for them than me.

Lols snapitty crack on

@BarrackerBarmer

Yes, I’ll just answer your post before I go to bed as you’ve been listening and questioning.

Yes, I fully realise I cannot biologically change sex.
I accept I am not a woman.

But the GD and not feeling like a male go hand in hand (and I’m sure the opposite is true for trans men).

I’m just sorry the trans woman name has been hijacked but so many others.

The other question which I've never seen anybody properly answer (alongside "define a women") is how sexual segregation is any different from calling for racial segregation - e.g. arguing that certain ethnic minorities who display greater levels of violence/criminal offending should have separate spaces like they used to?

Are you mad? Devoid of life experience? Or just another MRA/TRA? Because we had one of those only yesterday, DelurkinGherkin.

Linoleum, I'm not sure that women's spaces were created by women to protect themselves so much as just being tradition or an attempt to preserve modesty in bygone ages when showing a flash of ankle was deemed too racy for public consumption (I could of course be wrong).

Press that wee phobic button report on

they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here. Calling them men is offensive andtransphobic

They are not women. Saying that is offensive to women and misogynistic.

They aren't men claiming to be women : they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here. Calling them men is offensive andtransphobic - and transphobia is against Talk Guidelines.

Snappity - there are transwomen on this very thread whom you've just called 'transphobic' because they say - of themselves - that they are 'not women'.

Linoleum, I'm not sure that women's spaces were created by women to protect themselves so much as just being tradition or an attempt to preserve modesty in bygone ages when showing a flash of ankle was deemed too racy for public consumption (I could of course be wrong).

We appear to have yet another person who thinks women would be perfectly safe allowing any and all men into their spaces.

'They are women'

But they are not, snappity.
Prohibiting the truth from being spoken doesn't make it not true any more.

Mumsnet has talk guidelines, yes, but to be neutral it cannot promote 'transwomen are women' and censor 'transwomen are men'.

We may have to trim the truth to fit within constrictive guidelines, but we haven't reached the point where an untruth can go unchallenged. Biological fact is still within guidelines.

As woman means adult human female, no-one male can ever be a woman. Of any kind. With or without a prefix.

Linoleum, I'm not sure that women's spaces were created by women to protect themselves so much as just being tradition or an attempt to preserve modesty in bygone ages when showing a flash of ankle was deemed too racy for public consumption (I could of course be wrong).

This is the new wave of the argument, isn't it? They've moved on from 'Women have nothing to fear from transwomen' to 'women are being stupid/irrational/fearmongering wanting separate spaces at all'.

they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here.

Well that's clearly bollox as the only reason women assuredly know they are women is sexed bodies. How do people without the sexed bodies assuredly know?

Jacky please read my posts again. I do not say any of the things about the GRA that you say I do. In fact I say the opposite - what you are saying.

I am pretty confident that I know what the expression "trans women are women" means. It defines all women in this way:

They tend to buy a certain type of clothing, that is marketed as being for women, to wear their hair a certain way, to have a body that appears a certain way, with breasts etc. and a relatively high pitched voice, to enjoy the attention of men when it is pleasant and to fear it when it is unpleasant, to be fairly empathetic, to wear make up and shave their legs, to enjoy a good gossip and a level of intimacy in friendship, to be smooth not hairy, smell sweet, be sometimes kind and sometimes catty, and frequently say "y'all" .

This is what it means.

I do not fit this definition unfortunately, nor most women here.

BUT we all know what it means. A sexist stereotype of what a woman is has become the definition of what a woman is.

Vicky.

Really? Who is this person? Because it certainly isn't me.

I like to deconstruct beliefs and especially my own for that matter - if they can't stand up to questioning then it poses some interesting questions.

So it seems that this question is one for which nobody can proffer a cogent argument.

Sex, not "gender" is a biological reality. It's sex, not gender which is a protected characteristic. The reason that they are different is because spaces are not segregated by sex because men are considered inferior to women. HTH

So it seems that this question is one for which nobody can proffer a cogent argument.

Every person on this thread could "proffer a cogent argument" to refute your poor analogy. The reason that they don't, is not because they can't handle your killer logic.

LinoleumBlownapart sorry I think I misunderstood the second part of your first post so some of my comment doesn't apply.

I'm not sure that women's spaces were created by women to protect themselves so much as just being tradition or an attempt to preserve modesty in bygone ages when showing a flash of ankle was deemed too racy for public consumption (I could of course be wrong).

You are wrong, DelurkinGherkin. Entirely wrong. And offensive with it.

But the GD and not feeling like a male go hand in hand

Still not getting why not feeling like a male = feeling like a female. How? Why? You can have literally no idea what being a female feels like. None.

Then offer a cogent argument based on reason and not emotion/feels.

I've not yet seen one good argument as to why the logic of GC feminists couldn't be applied to racial arguments (hypothetically speaking of course) and this is likely why in the outside world 'transphobic' feminists are treated like the devil and permabanned/fired from jobs/etc for expressing these sentiments.

I know I still can’t get an answer on the feeling