Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

Hi @happydappy2

I’d much prefer ‘trans women’ because ‘non man’ is a negative name that would constantly imply what I’m not.

No issue with the word trans, trying, but you accept you aren’t actually a woman either?
How does non man imply what you’re not? I don’t get the logic

Man = adult human male
Woman = adult human female

My reply was probably too short.

To live my daily life and be called a ‘non-man’ everyday would be a very galling and de-humanising experience. It’s just not a very nice name to call a group of people in my opinion.

I prefer trans woman.

I am not a woman. I am a trans woman. I have gone through the process of transition to relieve my dysphoria.

The word is ONLY desirable to TW because it is associated with biological females. There is no way they would want the word if it evolved to mean "mostly people born with penises who perform femininity".

This.

I suppose...

I’m a woman, though, and the times I’m actually called a woman are extremely rare, tbh.
Nobody ever says “there’s greyhound, she’s a woman”, or “look at that woman over there”.
It’s just not relevant most of the time.
You’re obviously hyper conscious of how you present to people but it’s rarely an issue for other people on a day to day basis unless you’re very obviously somewhere you don’t belong.

I guess I mean you wouldn’t name a minority group ‘non men’ when that term is very close to terms they have been bullied with by abusers.

What I was trying (and failed) to say is that the only person who’d refer to you as a non man is you yourself, really.
Nobody else knows or cares how you identify, unless you present yourself as a problem to be solved.
In normal social interactions you really don’t need to push it to people’s attention.

I agree "non-man" isn't very nice (though to be fair I'm really trying to not be quite so nice as I've just realised at the grand old age of 57 that being nice hasn't got me very far in life)

I was ok with the word transwoman before all the TWAW stuff; now I'm worried about using it for fear the activists will say "there you go, you call them women too, the "trans" bit is just an adjective".

Which rather leaves people like Tryingtolisten high and dry - they've been called transwomen for years and now their identity is also being stolen by the exhibitionists, the special snowflakes, the misogynistic AGPs, the cross-dressers, the transvestities and anyone else who fancies jumping on the bandwagon .

I guess I mean you wouldn’t name a minority group ‘non men’ when that term is very close to terms they have been bullied with by abusers.

Isn't 'non-men' the term that the Green Party are now using instead of 'women'?

I certainly don’t like non-man, trying - it feels unpleasant any way you look at it. I can see why you’d reject that and I’d agree with your reasons. It’s insulting.

Vicky yes I think yr right-just shows the madness of the moment!

Tryingtolisten2 I can quite see why non man has negative connotations, but perhaps these are negative to you. It is imperative that trans women understand how offensive it is to women, when men claim to be women (for a multitude of reasons-some justified, some dubious.)

i'm just trying to work out how lawmakers find a path forwards that respects trans people, and also protects the safety of women & children.

trying can you explain WHAT it is that you are rejecting about the word man?

Is there something other than a biological definition that makes you reject the word?
Why do you feel so strongly that you cannot be known in any way that relates to the word man, even if you had some sort of prefix that differentiated you from the men who you feel are a different category to you?

@BarrackerBarmer
I’m not trying to weasel out of anything here but it’s really difficult to put into words (which is why diagnosing Gender Dysphoria (GD) is so difficult).

But I’ll try... and I’m being open and honest so don’t shoot me down this is really tricky to define...

I don’t know why I have GD, nature, nurture or a mixture of both.

It stems from earliest memories.
Not feeling but, knowing, my body didn’t match what my mind.

Praying from the age of 4 to 14 that I’d wake up as a ‘normal’ girl (at 14 realising God wasn’t listening) and then hitting puberty and experiencing the rush of testosterone which felt terrible to me and the body changes that came with it.

These are not things non trans males experience. I knew my body was wrong it felt like it should be female and the Dysphoria was horrible.

I don’t know? How does anybody know who they are? They just do.

The above are just snippets to try and give an idea of my experience.

I can’t do better than that I’m afraid until medical science can pinpoint what causes GD.

The other question which I've never seen anybody properly answer (alongside "define a women") is how sexual segregation is any different from calling for racial segregation - e.g. arguing that certain ethnic minorities who display greater levels of violence/criminal offending should have separate spaces like they used to?

Are you saying you can't see why girls and women need safe and separate spaces from boys and men? And you think this is comparable to racial segregation?

trying that makes sense, none of us know what it feels like to have that rush of testosterone. (I imagine.)

I really appreciate you taking the time to add to this thread & value yr posts.

It’s really hard to understand trying I guess cos I don’t understand wha5 it is that u want to be like me. Like a woman what is it ?

And that’s not being an an arse just trying to understand what u see in me that u want

A seahorse is not a horse.
A mushroom is not a room.
A hotdog is not a dog.
A litterbug is not a bug.
A monkey is not a key.
A seesaw is not a saw.
A friendship is not a ship.
A transwoman is not a woman.

But I wouldn’t want to hurt u. So if u don’t want to answer cool

delurkin check the factual figures of violence against women, by men, before you post such atrocious rubbish. you don't warrant an answer.

Sorry, trying but I wasn't asking about your dysphoria though. (Although, sympathies)

Lots of people, men and women, suffer dysphoria.

What I don't understand is your position that a man suffering dysphoria is not therefore a man? Like dysphoria negates the man experiencing it.
Can you, philosophically at least, accept that a man suffering intense dysphoria is still a man?
Sex is as much an unchangeable thing as eye colour. It's a physical characteristic. You can attempt to mask it, but it's nature is unchanged.
And no degree of acceptance or rejection changes the reality beneath.

There is something you are rejecting about manhood beyond "people who share my reproductive anatomy" and that was my question.

That’s a very nice little rhyme @Noqont but I don’t know who it is aimed at?

I’ve already said I am a trans woman not a woman. I fully realise I cannot biolically change sex but transitioning is the only thing that dials down my dysphoria and makes day to day life liveable and more comfortable.

I am off to bed soon. I don’t want to hog the thread.

Thank you for listening.

homefromthehills "The law IS currently written this way."

It isn't .. GRA 2004 acknowledges it creates a Legal Fiction that is a legal technicality only.\

See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction

Nowhere in any law does the GRC give any male who has one access to all female spaces, schemes, sorts etc ... the GRC is only about legally required documentation ... this is where the transitioners are misleading everyone. They have assumed that a GRC gives them licence to access all female spaces. It doesn't. No-one who possesses a GRC has a legal licence to access the spaces of the opposite sex.

I can quite see why non man has negative connotations, but perhaps these are negative to you. It is imperative that trans women understand how offensive it is to women, when men claim to be women (for a multitude of reasons-some justified, some dubious.)

They aren't men claiming to be women : they are women who know they are women as assuredly as all the other women here. Calling them men is offensive andtransphobic - and transphobia is against Talk Guidelines.