Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

well thats your opinion....but the rest of the world may have a different opinion. Lets face it trans people do not live in isolation, and the lawmakers have to be able to write law that adequately safeguards women and children, and to do that it may well be imperative that trans women are classed as trans women.
As I asked initially-otherwise why do those very words exist?

Once again the goal posts are moved

Sorry?

So yet another thread knocking trans women and denying that they are women.

How is it knocking trans women to say they are trans women? There is nothing wrong with being a trans woman.

I would like to live to see the day when people can be comfortable in their skin, where heterosexuals do not feel they had to only date people who fit gender norms. Where transwomen and transmen would be seen as attractive and beautiful for who they are. Where they could be themselves and live free from discrimination.

But by upholding gender norms and stereotypes that will never happen! In those circumstanced where we say that a transwoman is a woman we will most likely ensure that discrimination will not only remain but it is likely get a whole lot worse

Woman = adult human female (including trans women)

OMG you can't just tack on 'including transwomen' and automatically have that included in 'adult human female' 😂😂😂

What is the meaning of human female Glitched, and how can it include human males? How do humans reproduce?

There is nothing wrong with being a trans woman.

But sadly society does say this, and that's where the problem lies. Transwomen don't want to be transwomen, they want to hide/blend into the category of women because society says that men cannot be feminine and transwomen are sadly marginalized and judged. Individuals do not think this, but the bigger picture will not change unless those individuals collectively fight for change. Women are the best people to help those transwomen fight for change, but most women are being alienated from the bigger cause with this transwomen are women ideology.

By focusing on transwomen and transmen slotting in and becoming women or men, then we are just changing people and leaving society to continue with its backwards ways, worse than that, we are reinforcing the way society is and how "we" collectively view ALL men and women. Transwomen and transmen will be the biggest victims of this!

Woman = adult human female (including transwomen)

Adult human female does not include transwomen. Woman includes transwomen.

Adult human female does not include adult human male.

Adult human female does not include transwomen. Woman includes transwomen.

How? You are not making any sense. You can't just keep using the words include, female, transwoman, woman in different ways and expect that to explain how transwomen are women.

Glitched, what?

You said woman = adult human female.

The = indicates the exact correlation.

Your next two sentences say the exact opposite.

Do TRAs have a basic problem with algebraic understanding? Is maths the next frontier of discredited codswallop, like biology has been before?

Snappity does not understand language, or logic. Or science.

glitched thats yr opinion. Do you have any evidence to back that up?
I'm struggling to understand why trans women have to be shoe horned into the class of women, when they could live as their true authentic selves as trans women.
(Also respecting the reality of what a woman is.)

My answer is in response to people asking for a defintion of woman.

When that definition is provided the goal posts are suddenly shifted.

Woman = adult human female and transwomen.

Adult human female does NOT inclued adult human male or transwomen.

You can view it as shoe horning if you want. I view it as an expansion of a definition to be inclusive of ALL women.

So the word woman includes male people?

Since when?

And does the word man include female people?

When a man identifies as a woman, does that mean that they are identifying as a male woman or a female woman? And how do they know which of the two categories of women they are identifying as?

glitched whats wrong with being classed as a trans woman?
That way trans people wouldn't have any altercation with women.
The very fact that the words trans women exist-seems slightly odd not to use them.

I think I get where Glitched is coming from.

They are saying that they want to expand the traditional definition of woman (that of being adult human female) to also include transwomen.

I assume this is because transwomen (or at least some transwomen) want to be thought of, by others, as being the same as females.

If this is what Glitched's position is, it is a starting point for debate.

Glitched, can you see both pros and cons for changing the definition?

Transwomen are women because they feel like women and as women we cannot know what it feels like to be a transwoman. Women have not experienced life as a transwoman, the complications, the discrimination, the abuse, that they have not experienced it because they are "privileged" by being born as women. They on the other hand do not need to experience being a woman, they just know they are women because they feel like women. The irony would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Of course, transwomen are women is a nonsense mantra. That's all it is and it does not help.

Transwomen are not women in a biological sense and cannot be and that matters in some circumstances. Which transactivists seem unable to grasp.

The GRA covers transsexuals who DO get this and know that you do not change sex. This is a very small number with a medical problem who have gone to great lengths to resolve that with doctors and who are happy with the exemptions written into the GRA to protect situations where biology matters.

Exemptions that are only there because transwomen are NOT women. Probably why the activists want rid of them as it is obvious this is a non sequitor.

Transsexuals do not want rid. We accept them as part of a reasonable compromise which the GRA was made to be.

A compromise that accommodates the role of a TS person into a two sex society - which we have - not a utopia - whilst recognising need to have continuing divides to which this accommodation should not automatically apply.

The whole thing is about give and take and mutual respect and without removing the basis of biological reality.

All of which is under threat if these currently medically assessed and gatekept accommodations are removed, the definition of 'woman' is reduced from actual women and those diagnosed with a need to transition permanently to function in society as one to what anyone feels they are and chooses to call themselves on any one day.

By taking the legal recognition and basis of who is and is not regarded as a woman for the purposes of law out of the hands of independent assessment for suitability and risk assessment and sincerity and into the hands of the person wanting to redefine themselves entirely on their say so, the accommodation collapses.

It will put at risk the understanding that transwomen are not women but are treated as such for day to day purposes. I suspect it would not be very long before transwomen are women became literal truth in law. Which would be wrong.

What exactly makes a male person a woman?

In what sense are they women? What do they do that makes them women?

In what sense are they not men? In what ways are they different from men?

That might be something to think about.

When that definition is provided the goal posts are suddenly shifted.

No. You need to back up the definition.

On what basis are transwomen women?

homefromthehills I agree entirely. I don't see how lawmakers can muddle through this quagmire unless they recognise that trans women are exactly that-trans women. (differing to women but wishing to identify as one.)
That way the safeguarding of women & children is not compromised.
It just seems a really bizarre way to try and affect change, by chanting a mantra that is utter tosh.

I’ve never had to point out that “women are women”. Nobody has ever felt the need to point out that white women are women, or that disabled women are women because it’s self evident.

It has to be pointed out because it’s not true.

There s no way to square this circle. If you say woman is an identity or feeling, it excludes millions of females who don’t have a gender identity. If you say it’s biology, it excludes trans women. It can’t be both a material reality AND a feeling