Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

I believe we should expand OUR definition of women to include transwomen.

what's your expanded definition?

As I’ve said in a couple of other threads, and I don’t speak for anyone but myself, I am a trans woman.

I was born biologically male but I suffer from Gender Dysphoria.

The only treatment that has worked for me to relieve that Dysphoria is transitioning.

Am I a woman? No

Am I a trans woman? Yes

Is there anything wrong with that?
Or does that make me a lesser, unhappy person? Not in my opinion.

Other trans people may disagree with me.

If you took the time to actually read what I said you will see I have never claimed trans women are the same as biological women.

But you still haven't explained what transwomen and biological women have in common that means they can both logically sit within the same definition.

glitched I think yr talking utter rubbish-which other women wish to expand the definition of women?
What purpose does it serve? Who does it benefit?
What about the safeguarding of women and children?

If you took the time to actually read what I said you will see I have never claimed trans women are the same as biological women.

OK. How are they women at all? You need to give some sort of specifics here.

There is indeed nothing wrong with that, Tryingtolisten.

Women have not experienced life as a transwoman, the complications, the discrimination, the abuse, that they have not experienced it because they are "privileged" by being born as women

Yeh, because no woman was ever raped, beaten, abused, a victim of FGM, murdered, died in childbirth, had an abortion against their will, had to give birth to a rapist's baby, forced into prostitution or sex trafficking. Real privilege. Oh yeh, all at the hands of men.

And because of their biological sex.

Those born as men and now deciding they id as women had a privilege to begin with - DNA.

If men are trying to identify out of being men, let the men expand the definition of men to include men who’d rather not be known as men.
Why they imagine this makes them women is beyond my understanding entirely.
Too many men in that post...

Glitched, I’ve already asked you twice but you haven’t given me an answer yet. It’s really rather rude to try to redefine one’s category without answering the relevant questions.

What is it that I have in common with all other women and trans-women that I don’t share in common with men?
If you can’t provide an answer then the category of woman by default becomes miscellaneous.

Agree op. If transwomen are women, there is no need for them to trans, or keep telling everyone how very much 'woman' they are. I don't, but that's because I KNOW I'm a woman, so I don't have to convince anyone, or identify as one, because I just am. Also the reason why I'd never be upset if I was misgendered (has happened actually), I know is I'm a woman so can just laugh it off. Trans people who know they are not women, get very ragey about misgendering, its their inconvenient truth sadly.

If you took the time to actually read what I said you will see I have never claimed trans women are the same as biological women.

But, you said trans women were real women. So how can they be real women but not the same as biological women at the same time?

I'm not denying trans womens existence

Those claiming transwomen are women are denying the existence of transwomen really. Its as if people think 'trans' is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden and denied!

But, you said trans women were real women. So how can they be real women but not the same as biological women at the same time?

Schroedinger's...

I think I'll take TryingToListen2's word on this rather than glitched's. Makes a lot more sense.

Excluding people from a definition is not the same as excluding them from having rights or bring recognised for who they are.

How will being defined as the same as an adult human female actually benefit transwomen?

If the answer is to access women's spaces and be safer. Then they will have eroded the boundaries of those spaces and chances are neither women or transwomen will be safe anymore. So then what benefits are left?

Transwomen need to fight for rights, for change and for safe spaces for TRANSwomen.

Indierockandroll I think you misunderstood my post. As women we're told we don't understand transwomens' plight because we're privileged to be born women and therefore do not understand how they feel then in the next breath tell us they're women because they feel like that. It cannot and is not possible for those two scenarios to exist.

Sorry Lino - I flew off the handle a bit there and definitely misunderstood as I was reading quickly amid the madness of other posts. Doh!

The level of debate on these boards is significantly above 'because I say so' or 'because I believe it'.

Noone male can be a woman if woman means adult human female.

Yet if woman is to mean something else, then there is a very high probability that most humans who are adult and female will NOT fit the new definition.

If TW won the right to be called women, and 3.8 billion women said, fine, we'll start over because we remain, still, in a different category to you, the word woman would be dropped like a hot potato.

The word is ONLY desirable to TW because it is associated with biological females. There is no way they would want the word if it evolved to mean "mostly people born with penises who perform femininity".

As Groucho Marx said “I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.”

And so it goes with 'woman'. It's a paradox. Wanting to belong to a group but knowing that to be granted entry changes the group irrevocably into something less desirable.

Those claiming transwomen are women are denying the existence of transwomen really. Its as if people think 'trans' is something to be ashamed of, something that should be hidden and denied!

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, trying to push transwomen under the umbrella of women is an attempt to hide to brush transwomen under the carpet. God forbid gender norms are wrong, there's no such thing as feminine men, as you were, as you were! They're just women born in the wrong body, panic over. It's like we're going backwards, Victorians would embrace theory with open arms. Gender norms NEED to change and transwomen need to be accepted in society and that will never happen if they are re-defined as another type of woman.

More than a few service users have taken their own lives, as the current process to get the GRC is long, expensive and invasive...

OK, you are saying transpeople have committed suicide and blamed it on the 'long and complicated' process of getting a GRC? Thats what you are saying, yes?

Its not expensive either, given its means tested.

And its considerably less complicated that getting PIP or something. And most are not turned down, where people applying for PIP are turned down left right and centre even if its clear they are entitled. I highly suspect that the PIP process is just as invasive, if not moreso than the GRC process.

But yes, let any man ;change sex' on a whim, make it as easy as possible, meanwhile businesses are adopting a 'self ID' model for sex segregated spaces to 'get ahead of the law' and we currently have male rapists in female prisons. Its all way too fucked up, and I suspect this is the way it was meant to be. This is NOT about transsexual people, its about various groups of predators and MRAs finding new ways to destroy womens rights.

This is NOT about transsexual people, its about various groups of predators and MRAs finding new ways to destroy womens rights.

That's certainly how it looks to me.

Tryingtolisten2's description of being a transwoman is reasonable and logical.

Am I a woman? No

Am I a trans woman? Yes

Is there anything wrong with that?
Or does that make me a lesser, unhappy person? Not in my opinion.

Whereas your attempts to redefine the word woman, Glitched, are devoid of intellectual content. Just blether.

And Breton, as Popchyk said, you've nailed your colours very firmly to the mast with your appalling comment about the four women assaulted in a women's prison.

You really don't give a shit about women, do you? Well, at least we know where we stand.

Maybe Glitched can provide a definition of 'transwomen'? When can someone call themselves that? Otherwise their definition of woman = adult human female & anyone who calls themselves trans. You can't write laws around naming yourself something without having some backup.

You can't write laws around naming yourself something without having some backup.

Especially - and this is precisely why we're so bothered about this - if that 'naming yourself something' gets you access to a range of places, roles and services.

So either trans women or non man?
Non man could still use male facilities but clearly be identified as a non man. My head is slightly spinning but it is astonishing that women are expected to accommodate males that don't wish to be males-rather than men accepting them in their sex segregated spaces. I don't think this is sustainable.