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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
silentcrow · 24/07/2018 21:51

I would not send my daughter to GG while this policy is in place and I will speak up to ensure that those who do send their daughters understand the full implications of this GG policy.

Hear, hear. My own girls haven't shown any interest, but thinking about some of the girls I work with...you know, you can't count on children understanding any of this. I have ten year old girls who can barely write legibly, can't add up their change in a shop and really struggle to navigate friendships - some of them are no more mature at ten than children in the infants. And that's before you get to any with difficult homes or abuse in their backgrounds. How are they supposed to navigate this change in what they - and their parents - think is a predictable, safe space?

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 21:51

If you look on the Guiding pages:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

it looks a lot like Stonewall- with those kind of views as quoted upthread- have been working with GG UK:

Eg ‘I felt alone because I had no one and it scared me. - Quote provided by Stonewall’ etc.

This is really shocking. What on earth are Stonewall’s credentials for advising other charities on policies for their residential trips and sleepovers with children... especially where these give rise to such blindingly obvious safeguarding problems?!

Sad
NoSquirrels · 24/07/2018 22:02

If GGHQ are monitoring this thread, I’m glad.

I’m worried. I like GG. I want all girls to be supported to be who they are. But I am also a parent and a realist and I see massive red flags for safeguarding, let alone all the other issues surrounding oppressive gender norms that GG strived to break free of.

If GG is to be mixed sex, then its constitution and fundamental guidelines must change. Publicly, transparently.

Swapping to a single gender mixed sex organisation is fine if you stand up and argue the case for that. And don’t create a witch hunt if “disrepute” among your leaders who seek open debate.

GGHQ - you can do better. I’d love my faith restored.

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 22:05

And also GG (if you do in future decide to be a mixed sex organisation - openly - rather than covertly, as at present Hmm) you will still need proper safeguarding policies..

Ereshkigal · 24/07/2018 22:11

it looks a lot like Stonewall- with those kind of views as quoted upthread- have been working with GG UK:

Including Pips/Phil Bunce apparently. What expertise does Pips/Phil have in policy making around safeguarding children, GG?

LineRunner · 24/07/2018 22:12

Dear Girl Guides HQ,

To 'identify as a girl' has to involve at some level, in some way, a performance of femininity - but this is exactly what Girl Guides as a movement claims it is against, ie the stereotyping of girls and girlhood.

GG is supposed to challenge stereotypes of girlhood and the stultifying performances of femininity that so constrain so many girls - not appease and assuage a load of (frankly) artificial, westernised, repressive and damaging social 'norms'.

Oh and do the Charity Commission know you've changed your mission?

Clinicalwaste · 24/07/2018 22:15

I am corresponding with GG and finding it all a confused mess to be fair. Am thinking about pulling my DD out based on trust and safeguarding and misrepresenting single sex.

Agnes you have whistle blown re a serious safeguarding risk. If they are now investigating you that to me is victimisation and intimidation of a whistleblower and is unlawful. Get a copy of their WB policy and have a look to see if they have followed it. They wish to isolate and shame you like every other woman who is speaking out. Don’t be ashamed or alone. More poeple are with you than you know. You have been an inspiration to me to tackle GG on this issue. They are getting pissed off having to field loads of questions and complaints from parents like me because of you nobly reasoning your hand to protect children.

Clinicalwaste · 24/07/2018 22:19

Spot on upthread by lemon

Beamur · 24/07/2018 22:20

I hope GG are reading this thread.
The risks that blindly following these new rules pose to girls is unacceptable. Expecting Leaders to facilitate badges etc which follow a specific ideology which they probably don't share and you can bet the parents of girls would not agree with is unethical and deeply unreasonable.
The naivety of the thinking behind this, that relaxing the protected characteristics in order to be inclusive of trans, but without considering the potential risks is shocking. If they are labouring under the delusion that transgirls are only attracted to males they need to wake up.
I have a DD in Guides and am a Leader too. I've discussed this and related issues several times with the other Leaders of our unit. We aren't all in complete agreement all issues, but have agreed we would not necessarily follow the programmes precisely. I pointed out that the girls in Yr5 and yr6 (mostly) will not yet have covered sex education, this is taught at the end of yr6, so most 10/11 year old Guides cannot be assumed to understand this, plus parents can withdraw their children from this lesson. On this basis, we really should not be straying into complex and nuanced areas that the girls parents might have different views on. I'm not a volunteer because I want to indoctrinate any set of beliefs, to my mind that really isn't what Guides is about.
I get the need for a trans person to have privacy and dignity, but this clashes head on with informed consent for the parents of under aged children. I won't lie to parents.
The rejection of non conforming girls is the very worst part of this and I think betrays the ethos of supporting and empowering girls.
I think there are ways GG could have been more inclusive and Leaders and girls would have been on board with, but this isn't it.

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 22:29

Agnes just noticed that there is currently a dedicated team at the Charity Commission looking at safeguarding reports about charities:

www.gov.uk/government/news/regulator-provides-update-on-work-of-its-interim-safeguarding-taskforce

(I am guessing this taskforce might have been set up in the wake of the sexual abuse scandals within international development charities.)

But the safeguarding concerns in relation to the proposed secrecy around mixed sex accomodation between adults and children at GGUK, and the kicking out of GNC girls at GG UK purely on the basis of their gender identification, would seem to be highly relevant to this team’s work.

The taskforce might be able to shed some light on the question of whether GGUK’s legal charitable objects (to benefit girls and women) are being met in this instance, taking into account the implications of this policy.

LineRunner · 24/07/2018 22:48

@ChattyLion I thought a while ago that GG had possibly altered its articles and mission without informing the Charity Commission.

The Safeguarding Taskforce could be highly significant.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 24/07/2018 22:50

My DD goes to Brownies. She will not be going on any residential trips whilst this policy is in place.

I will not have any organisation tell her that her boundaries can be disregarded because someone else's wishes are more important.

So, GG, if you are reading this thread - sort this out before you destroy the organisation entrusted to your care.

divafever99 · 24/07/2018 22:54

I've not read your previous threads but I am shocked by what the GG stance is on all this. Thank you for your hard work, will be following his thread with interest as my dd has recently joined Brownies.

GruffaIo · 24/07/2018 23:04

In the feedback for the FutureGirl survey, I set out my concerns as a leader (safeguarding, reinforcing gender stereotyping, excluding gender non-conforming girls). No badges for us yet!

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 23:24

Hi Girlguiding UK, if you are reading this thread. I apologise for this very long post.

The Charity Commission wrote to all charities in England and Wales setting out steps for them to take around safeguarding in December 2017: www.gov.uk/government/news/regulatory-alert-to-charities-safeguarding

It would be very reassuring to parents with safeguarding concerns about some policies at GGUK, if your Trustees could make public their response to the Charity Commission’s regulatory alert?

I’ve bolded some parts of the alert which seem relevant to the safeguarding concerns that you have had raised to you by both volunteers and parents:

Regulatory alert to charities - safeguarding

The Charity Commission (‘the Commission’), the independent regulator of charities in England and Wales, is issuing this alert to charities as regulatory advice under section 15(2) of the Charities Act 2011. [...]

The Charity Commission’s recently updated safeguarding strategy makes clear that safeguarding should be a key governance priority for all charities, not just those working with groups traditionally considered at risk.

Everybody has the right to be safe, no matter who they are or what their circumstances are, and the public expects charities, quite rightly, to be safe and trusted places.

We are reminding charities of the importance of:

providing a safe and trusted environment which safeguards anyone who comes into contact with it including beneficiaries, staff and volunteers

setting an organisational culture that prioritises safeguarding, so that it is safe for those affected to come forward and report incidents and concerns with the assurance they will be handled sensitively and properly

having adequate safeguarding policies, procedures and measures to protect people

providing clarity as to how incidents and allegations will be handled should they arise, including reporting to the relevant authorities, such as the Commission.

The Commission’s guidance makes clear that:

trustee duties include avoiding exposing the charity’s assets, beneficiaries or reputation to undue risk - this means taking reasonable steps to protect beneficiaries, employees and volunteers from harm

on occasion, charities may be targeted by people who abuse their position and privileges to gain access to vulnerable people or their records for inappropriate or illegal purposes - trustees must be alert to this risk and the need to manage it

safeguarding goes beyond preventing physical abuse, and includes protecting people from harm generally, including neglect, emotional abuse, exploitation, radicalisation, and the consequences of the misuse of personal data

Trustees need to be satisfied that there are clear lines of responsibility and accountability for safeguarding, in particular when working with other organisations to deliver services to their beneficiaries. [...]

If something goes wrong in a charity, the trustees are accountable and the Commission expects the trustees to take responsibility for putting things right. This is why trustees should assure themselves that their safeguarding practices are robust.

If there are concerns about this or about how issues may have been dealt with in past, trustees should carry out a formal review, including on the adequacy and robustness of the charity’s safeguarding measures, procedures and policies.

Trustees are advised to ensure that their charities:

undertake a thorough review of their charity’s safeguarding governance and management arrangements and performance if one has not been recently conducted within the last 12 months

contact the Commission about safeguarding issues, or serious safeguarding incidents, complaints or allegations which have not previously been disclosed to the charity regulator

Failures by trustees to manage safeguarding risks would be of serious regulatory concern to the Commission. We may consider this to be misconduct and/or mismanagement in the administration of the charity and it may also be a breach of trustee duty.

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 23:28

Whoops bold fail.
I had meant to bold the penultimate para above. ^^

This para would mean that the Trustees of GG UK should refer the concerns raised by the parents and volunteers directly to the Charity commission, if they have not already done so.

Queenofthedrivensnow · 24/07/2018 23:32

Thank you Agnes x

I will be removing dd1 from brownies if she's expected to deal with this. This will be grim as she loves it and wants to be a guide.

As it stands the brownies leaders have all been doing it forever and are really committed so I'd be surprised to turn up in September to see a bloke in a dress helping out.

As for trans brownies dd1 is extremely perceptive she will twig instantly.

Grateful I live in Devon where this kind of thing is rare

LineRunner · 24/07/2018 23:33

the Trustees of GG UK should refer the concerns raised by the parents and volunteers directly to the Charity commission, if they have not already done so

What a very interesting point.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 24/07/2018 23:35

It's not naivety, it's wilful where GG are concerned. They are deliberately placing leaders in an untenable position of having to lie to parents, and facilitate mix sex sleeping arrangements & toilets/showers, knowing this breaches safeguarding protocols for children placed in their care by trusting parents. They've calculated that the girls themselves won't speak up - they're well aware of female socialisation. They've decided to adopt the 'take it or leave it' stance with parents who have raised concerns. And they're bullying out a leader who has questioned their policies for valid & justifiable reasons.

However, GG can't claim, when the inevitable happens and some harm is caused to a child, that this wasn't foreseeable. Basic rule of negligence - if you know & have been warned, repeatedly, by parents & leaders, that you are not operating with safeguarding protocols, you will be negligent in the harm caused by anyone as a result of your policies.

Better start worrying about that insurance cover GG, cos if you've changed policy, ditched safeguards for children placed in your care, and have set up policies that deliberately withhold this information from parents while dismissing/not responding to parents who do raise concerns, you'll likely not be covered for any claims that are made for the harm this will cause. This is all information that insurance companies actually need to know, so they can properly evaluate the risks they are covering. You can't dress this up as anything other that an increased risk & liability they'll need to calculate your premium on.

Good luck screaming transphobia at your insurers when they tell you you've invalidated your insurance cover by failing to disclose material information relevant to the risks you are asking them to cover - you'll have to deal with any litigation on your own. Maybe your stonewall sponsored solicitors will work pro-bono for you eh?

ChattyLion · 24/07/2018 23:45

Linerunner, a registered charity could not legitimately alter its legal articles and mission and put that into effect (as GGUK have done here with this policy) without previously informing the Charity Commission and having that change formally accepted by CC.

Otherwise charities could just make it up as they go along and still continue to have the tax and other benefits of being a registered charity, which would be against the law and unethical. So I am quite sure that is not what GG UK are doing.

The rules are set out here: www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-make-changes-to-your-charitys-governing-document

It does look like if your charity is governed by a Royal charter (which i think GG UK is?) then GGUK would need permission of the Privy council to change their charitable objects

More here:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-charter-charities/royal-charter-charities#amending-your-royal-charter

And here (from GGUK website- if you scroll down it notes the Royal Charter relationship: www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation/how-girlguiding-is-run/

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 00:01

I have lost all trust in GG based on its actions.

I am unbelievably angry that it is silencing people and keeping secrets from parents.

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 00:13

If you have nothing to hide GG why are you disciplining people asking good safeguarding questions?

How can leaders properly risk assess case by case as you suggest when you have created and are enforcing a culture where discussing risk assessment is punished?

FFS.

ifonlyus · 25/07/2018 07:27

The bar for single sex exemptions is set impossibly high and no one wants to challenge it.

ifonlyus · 25/07/2018 07:43

I posted too soon. That statement. It's why it is so important and admirable what you are doing Agnes. If GG - an all female organisation which often includes nights sleeping away, and ought to be the last organisation that places being 'progressive' beyond the rights and safety of female children - has gone down this route, disregarding basic safeguarding, then we all are truly screwed.

Well done for persisting. I used to be an assistant Rainbows leader. Rainbows, Brownies, Guides often takes place in village halls and community centres, which are not organised like schools. The toilets can be some way away from the main activity hall. When I was involved with Rainbows, I used to have to go out to the corridor to wait if any of them went to the toilet, because the toilets were close to the entrance door which wasn't always locked. Parents really do trust leaving their daughters in these female only environments. They have a right to know if a male bodied person has become a leader.

It must be hard for you to face being ostracised from the organisation you have devoted your time to. I hope you have some supportive friends from the GG family.

InflagranteDelicto · 25/07/2018 07:55

Thank you for the update, this must be a horrid time for you.

As a leader I am very disappointed in the organisation I believe can do so much good.

Flowers