Another Girlguiding update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

@AppleKatie did you get any sense of what leaders will be doing "under the radar" to safeguard girls and women at residentials?

And that poor trans identifying leader. How much distress they must be in, and now to be excluded. Shame on GG.

When I was a young teen we had a mixed camping out (bivouacking) session. There was about 15 of us and both male and female teachers. I slept beside my male bodied and female bodied classmates. I woke up with my feet on one boy in our sleeping bags. There was no ‘sexual undercurrent’ or male intimidation at play. We were kids and knew what was expected of us.

And when I was 15, my best friend was sexually assaulted on the way home from school by 3 classmates. She kept this to herself until we were in our late THIRTIES because she was so fucking traumatised by it. It's coloured her whole life, I might add.

Fact: teenage boys that you know can be predatory sex offenders.

@prawnofthepatriarchy

I also did not scream because my rapist was my then-bf who woke me up by raping me, I was in denial of what was happening, and I did not wish to wake our flatmate.

I too can see how the desire to safeguard the girls from seeing a sexual assault would be weaponised by a rapist against a guide leader, or even one of the girls.

Supposition time. Let's imagine....

Imagine, at some point in the future, that the worst DOES actually happen and a female Girl Guide is sexually assaulted at a camp by someone with a male physique, when her parents had no idea that a self-ID transgirl or transwoman with a male physique would be present.

What would be the legal standing for GG?

Obviously there would be criminal charge against the perpetrator.

But would GG be open for criminal charges? Would they be held legally responsible for the actions of the perpetrator, bearing in mind that both the attacked girl and her parents believed that she was in a safe environment? What would be the charges? Would they simply pass the buck onto the leadership of the individual troupe involved, or would GG the organisation have to carry the can? They should, it's them who are implementing this, but would they be able to throw their leaders under the bus?

Also, does anyone know if there would be any difference if the perp was a transgirl, or an adult? Age of criminal responsibility is 10, isn't it?

Safeguarding - it's so yesterday, isn't it?

Men think this sort of thing out, bd67th, it's no coincidence. Thank you for the flowers. Here's some for you.

And thanks for the kind wishes, ChattyLion.

Vicarious liability. That's what Girl Guides need to be concerned about. Can they say they could not foresee a situation (that they insisted required no risk assessment) resulted in actual harm to a child they were responsible for? When their policy states this is what should happen & leaders must follow their policy or face being expelled - and those who do question it are investigated? This thread alone proves they have had detailed warnings on the risks of this policy. Their helpful little squirrel has helpfully confirmed that GG are monitoring this thread. It's all out there as proof they are wilfully negligent in creating this environment for children they are responsible for whilst in their care. They are fully aware that they are placing both women & girls at risk, but don't see their right to privacy, dignity & safety as important or worth considering in comparison to trans identifying adults or children.

Claiming innocence, shock, when it happens won't get them out of being vicariously liable. Try the 'but they said they were trans' defence, see how far that goes. Mixed sex sleeping arrangements for children without parental knowledge or consent, and a policy that forbids leaders from making parents aware. Yup, this wilful negligence.

Fact: teenage boys that you know can be predatory sex offenders.

Pre-teen boys can be predatory sex offenders. The boys who grabbed my vulva in a primary school mixed changing room could not have been older than 11. My sister was also sexually assaulted at the same school, by a boy and a girl. The girl was a victim of chronic CSA by a man in her family and so it was easy for the boy, who was also a violent bully, to groom her into joining in. Women and girls almost never sexually abuse unless they're groomed into it. This is why single-sex spaces keep women and girls safe.

bd67th

Indeed. Thank you for the additional, confirmatory comments.

And anyway, GG leaders are permitted to give out barrier contraceptives at mixed camps to members over 13, provided parents are informed that condoms are available and the policy is clear

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkk_camp_2014.pdf

So would the leaders even be able to do this if the camp was secretly mixed sex due to trans policies?!?

They'd be able to have them in their first aid box and if they knew or guessed themselves they'd be able to tell parents "as there are likely to be boys who identify as girls on camp, with your permission..."
Some leaders who've swallowed the KoolAid might not do that.
Some who don't even know about the policy wouldn't think to ask/tell the parents.

@Wanderabout

One of my leaders was a copper and told us that she would arrest any Guide or Scout who had sex on our joint camps (at opposite ends of the same huge field with the leaders' tents between the two groups) because we would be breaking the law. I'm not sure whether she was right, but none of us dared have sex with the Scouts plus they were all repellent in appearance, cleanliness, and personality.

Had anyone got a link to somewhere that gives an overview of the situation? I want to show it to someone without them having to wade through the whole lit. I suspect they'll be doing that themselves soon enough!

When I was looking at sending my DDs to Scouts, rather than Guides because I was let down by their cock-eyed waiting list system, I was assured by the Guider (who was also the district commissioner) that Guides was so much safer, and there was absolutely no way what had happened with dodgy Scout Leaders could ever happen in Guides, because they were so careful and had very strict procedures which they took very seriously and that kept everyone safe..................

Thankfully we are out of it now.

@AppleKatie did you get any sense of what leaders will be doing "under the radar" to safeguard girls and women at residentials

I honestly think most leaders feel it ‘won’t happen to them or their group’. But if push comes to shove I think they would simply break the policy about informing parents and/or insist on seperate tentage.

I have to say I think in reality it would be very unlikely in the small world of a Guide unit that parents wouldn’t be aware. At least one would be a friend of a friend of the family or whatever and would then tell the others. We cannot police the parents. And many leaders would encourage this gossip surreptitiously if they had their hands tied about dealing with this sensitively in a way that safeguards all concerned.

Someone asked for a link to a summary of the issues: try this www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/amp/

Thanks Agnes.

Even if Leaders are allowed to provide condoms, would the girls ask for them? Highly unlikely, I would have thought, especially the younger ones and even more especially those who believe that TWAW.

Suggestion to GG leaders: get a few non-latex condoms, aloe-based lube sachets, and cystits powders as well because of latex allergies, risk of vaginal or vulval friction injury, and post-coital cystitis. Leave them where the girls can get them without having to ask.

Having said that, GG leaders shouldn't be having to deal with this and neither should the girls: my camps were on farms with chemical toilets that we emptied into a pit we dug on the first day. We had no showers, not even any basins, and we fetched water daily from a farm tap using a barrel that we rolled along. The chance of a girl getting post-coital bacterial vaginosis, thrush, or cystitis will be so high if she has sex under those circumstances and then she'd have to suffer that infection in a field with no access to a pharmacy nor GP unless she plucks up the courage to tell a leader about an illness that is pretty embarrassing. Untreated cystitis can migrate to become a kidney infection, this has happened to me three times and once put me in A&E after I collapsed. Of course, the "transgirl" involved will suffer none of these symptoms because male biology isn't vulnerable to post-coital infection, proving that biology remains relevant here.

If GGUK (waves at the spies) care about girls, they will keep transgirls and their penises out of girls' toilets, showers, tents, and dorms. The age of consent is sixteen and one of the reasons why is because sex is physically risky for women and girls.

Well, I'm not at all willing to facilitate under age sex. The Guide unit I am involved with has an age range of 10-14. I wouldn't be happy at providing contraception to that age group and can imagine parents being pretty shocked and unwilling to send their kids to a camp where Leaders thought they might be having sex! As a present to one of those Guides, i wouldn't let my DD go on camp on that basis.
As a volunteer, this is not what I've signed up for either.

Parent, not present.

Protecting her is a pretty good present.

This condom notion is a bit of a red herring. I'm more concerned about sexual assault.

@VickyEadie I'm concerned about both rape and consensual sex acts, because both have negative consequences for women and girls and girls will get the most value from camp when they don't have to navigate the risk of those negative consequences.

I volunteered to help young women have a fun, empowering time with other young women. We have kids with some challenging behaviour, so it's not always a walk in the part. But I really didn't expect to find myself in the middle of an ideological battle.