Another Girlguiding update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

Please tell me you are made of Flanelette: strong, sturdy; yet soft

I am now, since we got a R&D department.

I still have the scars from the prototype. Long plane journeys are out.

Anyway sorry for PJ-railing.

Back onto the subject in hand. Sturdy PJs won't do it. End of.

Ah, I see what you mean prawn. Yes, wires did get crossed. And I completely agree - only a man would make the sturdy pyjamas remark. So many men have no idea how vulnerable women feel. And, for the benefit of lurkers and any one else reading this, I know NAMALT but there's no way of telling who the Nice Nigels are from the ones who would do us harm.

I do know lots of nice Nigels - mostly husbands of leaders - who help on camps and residentials and would never dream of entering a female only sleeping area because it would cause huge anxiety and embarrassment and it puts them at risk of allegations of impropriety. If I told them it's ok, join us, we are wearing sturdy pyjamas, they'd think I'd taken leave of my senses.

Safeguarding exists to protect the child primarily but also the adult. I have not seen one good explanation as to why it should be suspended on the basis of how a few individuals feel. I'm a fabulous leader (obviously ), I'm honest and trustworthy, I have no criminal record or ill intent but I have regular DBS checks, I'm trained and had references taken, I don't go into girls tents or changing rooms (or males if there are sons/partners present), I'm never alone with a child precisely because security and safeguarding procedures have to apply to everyone to be effective. GG don't just take my word for it, and why should they? But if a male identifies as a woman, they are in. I'm
Not talking about a transwoman with a GRC - any male who identifies as a woman is treated as such.

And I'm sorry to hear what happened to you Prawn. Stories like yours are the reason I'm not prepared to back down. We cannot let this happen to our daughters.

Many parents still think that girl guides is single sex. The policy says that it is single gender without explicitly stating 'mixed sex'.
Incorrect
Parents are told the organisation is single SEX. But it is not.

Great post Mamaryllis

sturdy pyjamas
Ah, I see we have today's installment of "Genderists Say The Funniest Things" Up there with Ducking Under a Bar as an Olympic Event and The Geneva Convention.

But more seriously, I agree with Prawn (and others!)
only a bloke would have said such a daft thing.

It is as sinister as the rest of the 'helpful' victim-blaming 'don't get yourself raped' advice - "just keep your knees together", "don't wear anything slutty (hey, sturdy PJs!)". You don't even hear yourselves - but we do.

And bringing my derail back on track - single SEX environments are very important for girls, to experience the freedom of not having to worry about having a male around. Great comment by Mamaryllis that outlines the real benefit of a single-sex GG environment. Also excellent point that such an environment would also be detrimental to a 'transgirl', who has come from a strict genderist (or even homophobic) background.

Males do not get why single-sex environments are so important for women and girls (well, maybe they do, that's why they want to stop them at all costs) - but it is not something any male, even in a frock, can experience - the atmosphere will change instantly when a male enters the space. Shroedinger's WomanSpace. You can never experience it dudes. Never.

Prawn.

Many parents still think that girl guides is single sex. The policy says that it is single gender without explicitly stating 'mixed sex'.
Incorrect
Parents are told the organisation is single SEX. But it is not.

I think this is one of the most disturbing elements of the situation, the secrecy, the (rather deliberate) obfuscation of the actual policy, as well as silencing the whistleblowers.

If it is such a 'great policy', then ffs, promote it openly. Explain it to parents, let them judge it. But this stealth genderist policy is the only way they can slip it through. But worse, it is not allowed to be discussed openly that will allow proper safeguarding for a mixed-sex situation.

I noted that Julie Bentley stepped down as CEO at the end of June. It smacks of 'sabotage and run'. Throw some penis into the GG, then not hang around to see the consequences of the policy. Clearly on some level, Bentley must have realised what this would do to the Guides? Otherwise, why not stick around and sort out the mess that will result from this?

It's the relentless hoop jumping that gets me.

Right women, here is how you level the playing field. First of all, forget about most sport, just stick to gymnastics and invent an entirely new event called ducking under the bar. Also wear sturdy pyjamas, preferably made of chainmail, in order to stop attacks and preserve your modesty. Furthermore, call the police should anyone look at you funny. And remember, if you do get raped, it's completely illegal, okay? And, it really would be a good idea to simply not look at people in order to identify whether they are male. It's rude and bordering on the fetishistic.

So just to recap, don't play sport, invent nonsense events, wear armour plating, don't look at people, and call the police if it all goes wrong.

Or.

Segregate.

Girlguiding knows perfectly well how harmful gender stereotypes are. They do a major research project every year - see the girls attitudes survey 2017 https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/social-action-advocacy-and-campaigns/research/girls-attitudes-survey/

On the webpage around inclusion, there is this statement about including girls of all religious faiths (GG traditionally being a Christian organisation although God has been removed from the promise and church parades aren't very common any more):

Always give members all the information about events, including who will be attending and activities for the event. This will allow for them to make an informed decision about whether they attend.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/religious-differences-and-guiding/

How is this reconcilable with a policy that simultaneously advocates mixed sex accommodation with no prior parental agreement?

Julie Bentley’s previous job was at the Family Planning Association. She’s advised the government on teenage pregnancy ffs. I’m pretty sure she knows where babies come from. I have zero clue how she keeps that thought in her head without recognizing even some of the concerns around mixed sex groups. It’s mind-boggling. I assume her intent was that the pregnancy thing would be mitigated by handing out condoms, rather than keeping the organization single sex. There is no way she can possibly be naive enough to not have considered relationships at best, adusuve behaviour at worst.

And still she opened the doors. And three girls and young women under the gender bus.

Threw

I assume her intent was that the pregnancy thing would be mitigated by handing out condoms

How on earth does that work in practice?
hey, your sturdy pyjamas look a little tent-shaped, here, have condom

I have a pro-tip to share. Condoms are not required where people with penises, no matter how they 'identify', are excluded. Simples.

Girl Guides have been completely suckered in by this woman. They could easily have remained single sex, and trans inclusive, by including females identifying as trans/NB/GNC.

Whoever has or is taking over will be overseeing the demise of the organisation as more leaders drop out as they cannot in good conscience go along with such a dangerous policy, and members/parents who were seeking single sex groups, for all the reasons Agnes has posted about. If they think for a second that parents will go along with transwomen stepping in to fill the breach when volunteers say no more, they'll be unlikely to find many parents willing to entrust their children to these people in the same way they currently do with the women volunteers. Especially as there's no proper safeguarding to deal with this, and I'd not trust for a second any transwoman who went along with this. Any transwoman who sees this opportunity as a way to validate themselves, rather than accept the strict safeguarding and risk assessments that Girl Guides apply to male volunteers, is not someone who should be within 100 feet of girls aged 5 - 18, under any circumstances.

Totally. I have no idea the mental gymnastics required to get from advising on teenage pregnancy to mixed sex teen camping without parental consent though. I’d love to take her out for a nice cup of tea and ask her. It must be an explanation without compare.

Goo idea re whistleblowing to the NSPCC.

Am pretty sure the NSPCC also veer to the ‘trans girls are girls’ side of the safeguarding bandwagon. Which is something of a concern as it leaves girls with no one willing to centre their rights and safety. I would love for more parents to email the NSPCC and ask them their stance on this though.

I have no idea the mental gymnastics required to get from advising on teenage pregnancy to mixed sex teen camping without parental consent though

This.

As far as I know, the official line is that trans girls and teenage boys are completely different.

But when pressed for clarification, the answer is that's enough, we're not talking about it anymore.

They also responded to a query about autogynephilia. Saying something like there's nothing they can do about that, as they don't ask people whether they have a fetish. Which, whilst no doubt true, is hardly reassuring.

How can you acknowledge the possibility that you are exposing children to a male fetish on the one hand, and then agree that there is nothing you can do about it on the other?

Trans girls and teen boys are entirely different, eh? A 15 yo male body with no medical or surgical intervention (please God, at that age!) is exactly the same whether the owner thinks he's a boy or a girl.

Anyone who doesn't agree is beyond deluded.

Floral

Quite

Research showing that LGB (not sure about the T) young people are twice as likely to get pregnant than their straight peers, suggests that GG might be underestimating the risks and that condoms may not be the answer (surprise).

www.reuters.com/article/us-pregnancy-teen-lgbt/pregnancies-more-common-among-lesbian-gay-bisexual-youths-idUSKBN0NZ2AT20150514

Perspicacia

That's really interesting. Lots of unanswered questions about risky behaviour, rape and coercion

... also denial and failing to access the Morning After pill?

When I was a young teen we had a mixed camping out (bivouacking) session. There was about 15 of us and both male and female teachers. I slept beside my male bodied and female bodied classmates. I woke up with my feet on one boy in our sleeping bags. There was no ‘sexual undercurrent’ or male intimidation at play. We were kids and knew what was expected of us.

Whereas when I was a teen I went on a big camp and, in a tent, in the daytime, I was sexually assaulted by another Scout.
It happens. Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it will never happen. Teenagers are sexual beings.