Another Girlguiding update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

Agnes you have whistle blown re a serious safeguarding risk. If they are now investigating you that to me is victimization and intimidation of a whistleblower and is unlawful. Get a copy of their WB policy and have a look to see if they have followed it. They wish to isolate and shame you like every other woman who is speaking out. Don’t be ashamed or alone. More people are with you than you know. You have been an inspiration to me to tackle GG on this issue. They are getting pissed off having to field loads of questions and complaints from parents like me because of you nobly reasoning your hand to protect children.

I second that.

To any new people who have just joined this thread,

This is it in a nutshell.

GG are deliberately placing leaders in an untenable position of having to lie to parents, and facilitate mix sex sleeping arrangements & toilets/showers, knowing this breaches safeguarding protocols for children placed in their care by trusting parents. They've calculated that the girls themselves won't speak up - they're well aware of female socialisation. They've decided to adopt the 'take it or leave it' stance with parents who have raised concerns. And they're bullying out a leader who has questioned their policies for valid & justifiable reasons.

Agnes - I wonder if it would be useful to talk to the NSPCC whistleblowing helpine www.nspcc.org.uk/what-you-can-do/report-abuse/dedicated-helplines/whistleblowing-advice-line/

They say you should call the Whistleblowing Advice Line if:

your organisation doesn't have clear safeguarding procedures to follow
you think your concern won't be dealt with properly or may be covered-up
you've raised a concern but it hasn't been acted upon
you're worried about being treated unfairly.

Knight, my girl guides are teenagers. I am mildly entertained by your dismissal of these concerns as ‘theoretical’ and can maybe offer you a few scenarios as to why I, personally, as a girl guide leader volunteering with teenagers, find the policies problematic.
One of the main aims of girlguiding is to enable girls to be anything they want to be. In order to successfully get this across, it is necessary to break down gender constructs and problematise ‘boys are like this, girls are like this, boys like x, girls like y, boys do a, girls do b’ etc. Gender has to be discussed as an outdated societal construct that limits both boys and girls, and questioned. We spend a lot of time discussing common societal notions.
Programming for teenagers discusses what we call ‘hot topics’. These are such things as female issues around puberty, menstruation, sex and sexuality, pregnancy, drugs, peer pressure, the works. With parental permission, we discuss such topics openly and the ultimate bottom line is the absolute notion of personal health and safety, the absolute right of girls to assert and defend their own boundaries, and to enable girls to have open discussions that without exception book down to being female, and biologically vulnerable in a way that males are not.
Can you explain to me please, how I destroy gender-ascribed stereotypes when a trans-girl is present? Given the prevalence of transition stories, there is an extremely high chance that ‘she’ thinks she is a girl because her parents enforced gender-based notions upon ‘her’ as a young child (see Jackie Green’s testimony - she wasn’t allowed to play with girl toys as a young boy and grew up ‘knowing’ she was transgender because of her parents’ gender-based ideology).
I cannot instil in teenage girls their rights to boundaries if I am unable to disclose or discuss that a male teenager will share their sleeping or changing accommodation.
If I am unable to discuss that I have a male youth member with parents, I am removing their parental veto who their daughter’s spend nights with. As a parent of a 14-18yo girl, I would expect a discussion with them if they wanted a friend with a penis to sleep over. As a guide leader, I am not allowed to mention to parents that their daughter is required to sleep over with a friend with a penis.
Usually our tents are patrol tents, but we sometimes use backpacking tents (D of E etc). Which teenage girl do I choose for a 1 on 1 tent share with the boy? What do I say to her parents? As a parent, would you want to know that I put your 16yo dd in a tent on her own with a boy? (Well, he’s a lesbian - what could possibly go wrong? I’ll just tell her (and you) that GGUK sees no safeguarding issues at all.)
I should add that it’s not really the pregnancy/ sexual/ safeguarding concern that’s the most important for me - that stuff is perfectly ordinary biological also-ran that can’t be argued against. My issues are the ideological - I joined an all-female organization because I recognize that female-bodied people are discriminated against because of gender-based ideologies, and I want girls and young women to learn to fight back against gender, assert their boundaries, and live full lives as women. I can’t do that if I am required to acquiesce and alter my programming stance to be inclusive of male bodied people.
Before you go off half-cocked, I was also a scout leader, and there is no getting away from the fact that joint sex youth organizations do not provide the same female empowerment by any means. They are extremely successful for girls who want to be included in an overtly masculine ethos, but that is not the same thing as having the ability to deconstruct the ethos and make your own decisions as to which direction to take. (For clarity - I’m very much an ‘include me in your boy’s game and I will prove to you that I can out-butch you, boy’ competitor) but my beliefs are that young women need to make their own decisions and be given the space and freedom to make them in. (We take part in exactly the same activities - my unit has two girls who compete at a high level in robotics and science competitions, an almost-international mountain biker, some climbers etc. But they also value the time we spend deconstructing peer pressure - with girls from three schools we discuss norms and expectations, and how these are rooted in gender beliefs. The closest I came to this as a scout leader was having male leaders jeering about boys doing ‘girly shit’ like ironing their own neckerchiefs and sewing on a badge. Cause that’s wimmin’s work, innit.)
My concerns are not just for my girls - how would a trans girl cope with a completely average meeting deconstructing gender norms and discussing how to deal with menstruation? How would they deal with the inevitable sex and pregnancy discussions? (We do have lesbian members, obviously. I currently also have at least one who is bisexual.)
Genuinely interested, Knight. People who suffer from gender dysphoria are not the bogeyman. We do a lot of programme work on mental illness, too. (I have girls in my unit with anxiety, depression, OCD, as well as epilepsy, club feet and cerebral palsy).
Everyone has the right to safety and respect. But males should not have the right to access girl guides. It should be a proud female space. Allow us to continue to enable girls and young women to explore and disengage from gender chains. Don’t gaslight our girls and young women into having to accept male bodied peers and leaders as women.

I should also add that I had an interesting discussion with a DC - one of her units has girl twins, where one of the twins is a trans girl. She was entirely fine with this as very young children - didn’t see any problem. A bit like Knight - who is going to problematise a 6yo on the basis of his penis?
These 6yos whose parents put them in dresses become 13yos. A 13yo undergoing puberty is an entirely different kettle of fish to a 6yo. There are very few parents who would care too much about the 6yo sharing with his little 6yo friends with leaders in the same room. The same parents will go ‘hang in a minute’ when the male is 16 and clambering into a 2 person tent with their daughter.
At 6, the age appropriate gender deconstruction is ‘that’s silly - boys AND girls can play with dollies/ cars - men and ladies look after children and drive cars, right?’ At 15, it’s more heavyweight - I’ve had girls in my unit tell me they flunk maths tests deliberately to maintain popularity with boys. ‘That’s silly’ doesn’t cut it.

And I bloody hope GGUK ARE reading this thread. They are doing us all a disservice.

My partner was at a large youth camp this week, where the police were called and a 16 year old boy was removed from the site after sexually assaulting two under age girls.

I’ll admit one of my first thoughts was “Thank fuck I’ll never have to deal with something like that at a Guide Camp”

Except, with the current policy, there’s every chance I will now.

where they will see statements about how proud GG is to be female only, how that's what the membership wants, and that GG uses the single sex exemptions in the equality act to lawfully be a single sex organisation

This is an outright untruth. Have GG not read the most recent guidance from the EHRC? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions

Since no child under 18 can hold a GRC, GG has clearly and categorically ceased to be a single sex organisation, and is not using the single sex exemptions allowed by the Equalities Act 2010. It really is that simple.

It is also ceasing to limit its leadership roles to women unless it is only allowing TWs with GRC, and not those without, to hold those leadership roles.

I can just imagine a judge letting a rapist off because a girl guide hadn't taken their 'sturdy pyjamas', that the guide or their parents didn't know would protect them from the man that was in camp, that they didn't know about.

I guess GG will change the guidance to ensure that all GGs now take 'sturdy pyjamas' now? Whatever they are. I assume they are so sturdy they cannot be removed? Isn't that called a Chastity Belt? So perhaps all GGs need to wear a locked Chastity Belt whilst on camp?

Jesus H Christ - what the fuck are the Girl Guides thinking?

And even if a GRC becomes obtainable on a simple self-id basis, ^this would still be true"; unless GG limits its membership (for leaders and for under 18s) to holders of a GRC, it is not a single sex organisation.

At the risk of sounding crude, surely a teenage trans 'girl' of teen age will wake up just the same as any teen age boy, first thing in the morning? In a tent with an un suspecting girl. This is an abuse scandal in the making, there will be hand wringing all round, 'lessons learned etc, those that put it into effect will be long gone though. Trans girls will be open to accusations of in appropriate behaviour

Sturdy pyjamas. So de rigueur...

Fantastic post, Mamaryllis

And brilliant work, AgnesBadenPowell

I can't believe all of the years of hard work fighting gender stereotypes have been ignored in the reformulated ethos. Because for any attempt at pretending that nothing has changed, it has. And put girls at risk more importantly. What are people thinking?

Mamaryllis

Excellent post. Full of common sense, real life experience and a sensitive approach.

The scenario that made me sit up was a 14-year-old boy, fully intact, attracted to girls, in the same tent as 10 to 14-year-old girls. Without the girls' consent, and without the parents' consent. Or indeed, knowledge.

What is really going to infuriate, outrage and turn the whole thing inside out will be the defence along the lines of but they are a girl, despite your daughter being pregnant by them.

It's utter nonsense. All of it.

I fully expect guides to introduce the sturdy pyjama badge.

FWIW, sexual assault and inappropriate behaviour does occur in public spaces with fully dressed people. It happened to me.... No one noticed or if they did, they didn't say anything. I know other women who had similar experiences, including at mixed sex scout/guide camps.

I think most women are well aware of this, Agnes. I certainly am. It was the belief that sturdy pyjamas would make guides or their leaders immune from assault that made that poster's sex apparent to me.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy that comment wasn't directed at you - I'm sorry if it came over as a dig. It wasn't! Nearly all women do, sadly, know that this happens all the time. My experience is one of millions. In many ways I got off lightly. I was addressing the disingenuous poster who came here solely to stir things up.

It angers me that men and women continuously minimise sexual assault and unwanted contact and brush it off with "wear sturdy pyjamas" or "it can't happen in public". It can and it does and Girlguiding is wilfully ignoring the facts.

Mamaryllis you are exactly the sort of leader GG should be delighted to have

I'm so glad there are brave leaders prepared to stand up but I suspect GG will double down rather than admit they are wrong, right up until a scandal when 'lessons will be learnt'

Eh up.

Did someone call?

Anyhoodles, just to let you know - alot of men see me as a challenge not a barrier. It can be quite exhausting on some camping trips, not to mention hot at night! Phew!

Anyways - as you were. Give me a bell if I can be of assistance.

0800-STU-RDYPJ

At the risk of sounding crude, surely a teenage trans 'girl' of teen age will wake up just the same as any teen age boy, first thing in the morning? In a tent with an un suspecting girl.

In a tent with their own home made tent, if you get my drift

Ive spent the last week at a large GG camp.

Despite the madness of the GGUK policy I am pleased to report that leaders on the ground were almost all:
A) openly gender critical.
B) outraged to learn the gguk policies and openly stating (once they realised them) that not on their watch would girls be so let down as to be forced to share with a trans girl without full discussion that included parents.

I would go as far as to say that if GGUK push this then they will ruin themselves.

We had (to my knowledge) one trans man on camp, he had his own tent, used the gents (which at least one of the men -there were only about 10 total, 1000+ girls/women- said he found uncomfortable) and there was much discussion about how now he was ‘he’ he was no longer entitled to wear uniform and must now be a unit helper (despite earning the LQ as a women about 5 years ago).

The overriding feeling from adults towards him was confusion and a sense of compassion because even the young women we knew pre transition was vulnerable.

Mamaryllis

Bloody hell. I have had a glass of wine but you've made me tear up a bit. Great post

Sorry, Agnes, we're at cross purposes.

I knew it was addressed to the sturdy pyjamas bloke. And only a bloke would have said such a daft thing. Sleeping right next to a male stranger, even in a room full of others, you could easily be assaulted. And if you were in amongst a lot of children or teenagers it would be easy to use that against you.

A man raped me when we were sleeping separately in the same room. He warned me that if I screamed it would draw the attention of the other men in the place and that might not end well for me. There were no women within earshot. I can well imagine being frozen in a church hall, not wanting to cause a stir that woke a bunch of GGs.

Incredibly

Please tell me you are made of Flanelette: strong, sturdy; yet soft