Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/08/2018 14:45

Surely parents are made aware of the policy when they join GG, so they will have made that choice already

Accept that your daughter may share facilities with a child with a penis and/or may not be adequately safeguarded or fuck off? Yeah, that's fair. In trans land.

PerspicaciaTick · 05/08/2018 14:48

Knight there was a time in the not so distant past where there was no safeguarding expected for youth groups. Then there was a cascade of abuse scandals and the safeguarding policies and procedures we now have were developed, for a while organisations became more careful about who they gave access to and listening to children.
By claiming that safeguarding policies will not be applied in circumstances relating to transpeople, GG is leaving the door wide open for us to return to the abuses of the past that safeguarding is designed to close.
Not that transgender people are abusers, but abusers are adapt at exploiting any opportunity...and if they can do that by claiming to feel like a woman while expecting organisations to prioritise their right to hide in plain sight, then they will.

ADarkandStormyKnight · 05/08/2018 14:50

LeiaThe Slaya why do you think I'm a trans activist? I'm curious, and I strive to be non-judgemental.

LeiaTheSlaya · 05/08/2018 14:56

Your post reads like a TRA bingo card. You need to try harder for that "I'm curious, and I strive to be non-judgemental" look, when you aren't even curious enough to read the damn thread before wading in.

You aren't very convincing & I don't take any "curiosity" seriously when it is so heavily soaked in TRA rhetoric.

Wanderabout · 05/08/2018 14:56

ADark

Girl Guides are secretly suspending normal safeguarding practice on the unprovable word of teenage boys and adult males, and behind parents' backs.

When people question it they are ignored, hushed up then disciplined.

This is for girls of all ages including teenagers.

LeiaTheSlaya · 05/08/2018 15:05

A few questions for those who want to challenge what's being said here:

Do you believe that girls (juvenile human females) of the age group that GG covers (5-18) have the right to privacy, dignity & safety? If not, why not?

Do you believe that those girls have the right to penis free environments when it comes to sleeping/showering/toilets? If not, why not?

Do you believe that safeguarding procedures should apply to trans identified people, adult, or child? If not, why not?

Do you believe it's acceptable for leaders of the various groups to lie by omission to parents of children in their care? Is so, why?

Do you believe that girls who identify as boys, or GNC/NB girls should be welcomed and included in GGs? If not, why not?

ADarkandStormyKnight · 05/08/2018 15:06

I'm hearing a lot of judgements and assumptions. I can see that this is a difficult area but I don't understand the catastrophising and nor do I think it is helpful to anyone.

TransplantsArePlants · 05/08/2018 15:11

God, how rude do you have to be to opine without reading a thread? Good bumpage though.

Wanderabout · 05/08/2018 15:14

Pointing out a youth organisation is suspending normal safeguarding practice without telling parents and hushing up those who ask questions = catastrophising.

Sure, whatever you say.

BiologyIsReal · 05/08/2018 15:21

I think statements made by someone who can't be arsed to read the full thread are best ignored.

Agastache · 05/08/2018 15:40

All the girls are vulnerable if a male bodied person is in the facilities that should be female only.

Why?

Really?

You are asking why females are at risk from males?

Come on now. Pull the other one.

Datun · 05/08/2018 15:47

Haven't read the thread but the answer is sturdy pyjamas. Oh, and it's catastrophising anyway.

😂

Ereshkigal · 05/08/2018 15:56

I can see that this is a difficult area but I don't understand the catastrophising and nor do I think it is helpful to anyone.

Do you actually understand why we have safeguarding policies and procedures?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2018 15:59

...would parents withdraw their daughters from school if a trans girl was in their class? And if so, would it be OK for parents to remove a child because another child had, for example, a disability or a physical attribute that made them distinctive? Or if there was a lesbian in the group?

Way to spectacularly miss the point.

And as for the sturdy pyjamas comment... You can often tell which sex class a poster belongs to from their rhetoric and assumptions.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2018 16:01

I think statements made by someone who can't be arsed to read the full thread are best ignored.

Bumps the thread though. Smile

Wanderabout · 05/08/2018 16:05

Sturdy pyjamas lol.

Let's scrap all safeguarding measures for children and replace them with sturdy pyjamas. Genius.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/08/2018 16:06

The pyjamas comment is up there with 'she asked for it' and 'lie back and think of England'. Disgusting.

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 16:13

Sturdy pyjamas? What on earth are you talking about?

Assuming you're here in good faith, lets have a closer look at this. If you, @ADarkandStormyKnight, were sleeping in a hall beside a Male you didn't really know, why would you feel the need to wear sturdy pyjamas? To keep warm? Or to keep your body hidden and inaccessible?

If it's that latter, why would you feel the need to do that?

Could one answer be, rather than take the risk mitigation action of "sturdy pyjamas", why not not remove the risk altogether by not sleeping next to the unknown male and wear whatever you want? Male sleeps in another room.

FWIW, sexual assault and inappropriate behaviour does occur in public spaces with fully dressed people. It happened to me, fully clothed, at a table in a packed restaurant filled with my colleagues. No one noticed or if they did, they didn't say anything. I know other women who had similar experiences, including at mixed sex scout/guide camps.

OP posts:
dontbringmedown · 05/08/2018 16:22

Agnes - sending you love and support across the ‘net. You are doing the job you signed up for - supporting young girls. I write as someone who was a brownie/guide and is so disappointed to see the movement abandoning girls and especially girls who for cultural or religious reasons cannot take part in mixed organisations. We are losing our female only organisations left right and centre - it’s a huge disgrace. I never thought I would emotionally turn against the guiding movement, or the WEP, or Labour etc etc and now I feel abandoned by all these organisations. You are a beacon of moral certainty and represent the very best of Guiding. Thank you for being a leader.

this

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 16:24

I don't intend to go through certain comments line by line but I will address a few other points.

Parents are not told about this policy. It is not in the welcome pack, or in the "join us" section. Parents could go through the policy section on website, where they will see statements about how proud GG is to be female only, how that's what the membership wants, and that GG uses the single sex exemptions in the equality act to lawfully be a single sex organisation. A parent would easily assume GG is a female only space unless they looked up the trans policy.

And let's be honest, how many parents would do that? GG is (was?) a trusted, respected organisation led by well known and liked women in the community.

How many parents know what the GG policy is eg with war games? GG actually forbids all war games, including laser quest and water fights with water guns. Shooting at a target is allowed. So many parents have no idea but it's pretty inconsequential. But the trans policy is not inconsequential - not for the girl who's leader cheerily asks her when she's leaving, because she's said she's gender non-conforming. It's not inconsequential for a girl who's parents take her out of GG if we can't offer single sex accommodation in line with the families faith. It's not inconsequential for the girl who feels a loss of privacy and dignity and is told in no uncertain terms that her boundaries, her rights, don't matter.

OP posts:
dontbringmedown · 05/08/2018 16:28

I've been asked to take over a brownie units that's about to fold (I'm on a brown owl break at the mo) ironically it has a male unit helper who is willing and able to run the unit but can't because he is a male identifying male. He could identify as female and run the unit and drop all those irritating safeguarding measures that have him sleeping in another room but obviously he won't. I feel on reading this thread that I can't go back to guiding and will be feeding back exactly why.

I'm lost for words.

dontbringmedown · 05/08/2018 16:44

to think we have a female prime minister allowing this to happen on her watch is disgusting. I can’t fathom how they allow grown men who identify as women, access to young girls, but if a girl is confused & identifies as a boy, they are forced to leave GG.

Exactly.
I think one of the reasons it's been allowed to happen is that a large percentage of the population are still under the illusion that most Trans Women have had bottom surgery, when in actual fact they don't.
A large percentage of Trans Women still have fully functioning penises.
A person self identifying as a woman, who still has a penis should not be sharing a sleeping area with young girls.

It's not bloody prejudice to point that out, it's A MASSIVE SAFEGUARDING ISSUE.
This can't be stressed enough.

dontbringmedown · 05/08/2018 16:56

Apparently Girl Guiding are monitoring this thread, so it might be worth directing all our best "FFS wise the fuck up about child safeguarding and stop pandering to aggressive activists who do not have little girls' best interests in mind" arguments directly to them:

This, with bells on.

dontbringmedown · 05/08/2018 16:57

The PM could do a lot to help end this madness. You'd think being a woman, that she would have some empathy and would at least have a stab at making sure that children are kept safe, at the very least.

VickyEadie · 05/08/2018 17:07

Vis a vis the 'conversation' above (with the ingenuous 'why is it a problem putting a male-bodied trans child/youth in with the girls?' comments), we're right back at 'So why sex segregate children at all, aren't we?

Because if a male-bodied trans kid is no risk put into changing rooms, showers, bedrooms with girls, surely NO male-bodied kid is?