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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
namechangedasimaguider · 05/08/2018 08:55

It needs all of you as well, parents, ex members, general members of the public, to kick up a fuss as well.

drspouse · 05/08/2018 12:11

And media.

Datun · 05/08/2018 12:17

AgnesBadenPowell

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but what does happen if a guide asks the leader 'is that person a trans girl/a boy?'

If they are 'not allowed' to divulge a confidence, irrespective of what the person looks like, how does that work?

Do they lie?

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 12:40

datun

The guidance doesn't address the possibility of a leader being asked a direct question. But the guidance is clear that confidentiality is expected and it's neither required or best practice to disclose that someone is trans.

This is another failing by GG - volunteers (all leaders are) should be expected to handle this on their own. GGHQ day that any issues should be referred to the commissioner or HQ - but that's not very helpful when you're cornered after a meeting. And assumes that all leaders have read and understood the policy in the same way. There's been no training - just "read the policy".

If someone asked me, I'd have to say that I can't discuss other children, hope the parent accepts that, then hope my commissioner and HQ deal with the issue before gossip spreads or the other child is pulled out.

In practice, what I would say is that GG is a single gender organisation not single sex and direct them to the policy webpage. I'd apologise for not being more specific but I can't discuss individual children. I'd also reassure the questioning parent that I'd do my best to offer single sex loos/tents/changing facilities and that I'm a gender critical feminist and will do what I can to help challenge gender stereotypes.

It's an utter minefield but I will not prioritise the needs of the trans child automatically - I have to balance the needs of all.

OP posts:
Datun · 05/08/2018 12:55

AgnesBadenPowell

Ok. Thanks for that.

I'm just envisioning a situation, the situation in fact, where a boy brings his sleeping bag into the tent and the girls go up to you and say there's a boy in our tent.

And your response must be I'm sorry, I can't discuss individual children with you.

What the hell are we teaching those girls? Sit down, shut up.

I know you know this. So none of this is directed at you, obviously.

Most people, when they think back to their childhood, can pinpoint tiny, infinitesimal situations that formed their attitude.

A young family member blames their long difficulty with using public loos, on a throwaway remark a teacher made in school when he five.

Just look how easily children are socialised.

Telling little girls that their self protective instincts are to be ignored is so wrong.

Datun · 05/08/2018 12:56

*was five

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 13:14

datun

Exactly.

The secrecy in all this really bothers me. We are told that we can give a trans child who comes out complete confidentiality. See this from the policy webpage:

A person does not have to disclose to you if they are trans. If they do, you should respect their confidentiality.
When a young person is 18 or over, it is unlawful to tell other people that they are trans unless the trans person has given you permission to do so. When someone is under 18, it is still good practice not to tell other people unless they have given you permission to do so.
If you feel it would be a positive step to tell others in order to best support the young person then you should consult them. The young person may agree with you and you can plan this accordingly.

In no other circumstances would leaders be advised to promise a child confidentiality. A child with secrets is vulnerable to exploitation. It's a basic principle of safeguarding. We know that abusers use secrecy to harm children. How is a child supposed to know that they can keep secrets with some adults but not others? NO ADULT should keep secrets with any child to avoid confusing the message. There's no way a child can tell who is really trustworthy and has their best interests at heart.

It's the same principle with DBS checks - most people have no record and nothing to hide but we can't make exceptions for anyone, because someone will take advantage and slip through the net.

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 05/08/2018 13:36

A person does not have to disclose to you if they are trans.

GGHQ no one is interested in whether the adult leader or child is trans or not.

It is their biological sex that needs to be known for privacy, safety, fairness. If teenage boys with full male anatomy and fully intact adult males can get undisclosable genitals simply by stating they are female, single sex provision and safeguarding practice becomes impossible.

The material and critical fact is their current biological sex, nothing else.

Datun · 05/08/2018 13:45

From the girl guides, of all bloody people.

An organisation that is meant to promote girls, that they can do anything, can be anything, step outside and ignore the gender box.

Unless of course...a man says no.

ADarkandStormyKnight · 05/08/2018 13:58

@AgnesBadenPowell

I haven't read the full thread but I was curious about some of the thinking in your OP.

Firstly, the girls are 5 -7 if I understand correctly, so I can't see many boys of this age identifying as a girl to the extent that they would be asking to attend all-girl residential trips. Your concerns seem very theoretical.

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out. If you had been changing surely you would have gone into a cubicle and not got changed without making sure you were somewhere private where no-one could follow you in?

Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. This sounds sensible to me. The trans child is the vulnerable one in this situation. I would hope that a Leader would make sure a trans child was comfortable with the arrangements and had privacy if they needed it, and that if something did happen (e.g. a girl got upset) that it would be dealt with sensitively.

And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out. I don't understand. Surely parents are made aware of the policy when they join GG, so they will have made that choice already. As a parent I would trust the group to identify concerning behaviour of any nature and deal with it accordingly. Parents know that they can't choose who goes on the trips - it might be the school bully! On another note, would parents withdraw their daughters from school if a trans girl was in their class? And if so, would it be OK for parents to remove a child because another child had, for example, a disability or a physical attribute that made them distinctive? Or if there was a lesbian in the group?

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well..... My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before . Really? I would be fine with that, and would just pack some sturdy pyjamas to save anyone from seeing anything they don't need to. It's a public hall, with several people sleeping in it. What do you think might happen?

And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female? Business trips are different - you are not on the trip to take care of children or volunteering. I think you are underestimating GGs ability to select suitable leaders. there is a vetting system in place, with DBS, personal references etc, and someone unknown to the group is unlikely to be going on a trip.

I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out. But isn't that exactly what you are proposing?

OldCrone · 05/08/2018 13:59

AgnesBadenPowell
When a young person is 18 or over, it is unlawful to tell other people that they are trans unless the trans person has given you permission to do so.

Is this correct? From the wording in the part of the GRA that I posted yesterday, I understood that this only applies if the person has applied for, or holds, a GRC.

Also, if the person is a child, under 18, there is no legal requirement of confidentiality.

The GRA seems to have been worded as though being trans is no different to being gay - other people do not need to know if you don't want to tell them.

But when it comes to sharing sleeping accommodation and communal changing rooms and showers, the other people should have a right to know if there is someone of the opposite sex present (regardless of their 'gender identity').

ChattyLion · 05/08/2018 14:03

In no other circumstances would leaders be advised to promise a child confidentiality. A child with secrets is vulnerable to exploitation. It's a basic principle of safeguarding. We know that abusers use secrecy to harm children. How is a child supposed to know that they can keep secrets with some adults but not others? NO ADULT should keep secrets with any child to avoid confusing the message. There's no way a child can tell who is really trustworthy and has their best interests at heart.

It's the same principle with DBS checks - most people have no record and nothing to hide but we can't make exceptions for anyone, because someone will take advantage and slip through the net.

This ^^^ x 1000

OldCrone · 05/08/2018 14:14

ADarkandStormyKnight

Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender.
This sounds sensible to me. The trans child is the vulnerable one in this situation.
All the girls are vulnerable if a male bodied person is in the facilities that should be female only.

And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.
I don't understand. Surely parents are made aware of the policy when they join GG, so they will have made that choice already.
Many parents still think that girl guides is single sex. The policy says that it is single gender without explicitly stating 'mixed sex'.

Or if there was a lesbian in the group?
Are you a man?

I think you are underestimating GGs ability to select suitable leaders.
What sort of people do you think will be attracted to being GG leaders if a man can self-identify as a woman and parents won't be told if such a person is taking the girls on a trip?

ChattyLion · 05/08/2018 14:17

Sorry to recycle a previous post, but to the PP who were talking about social links between GG senior management and Stonewall/NUS senior management:

If you look on the Guiding pages:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

Stonewall have been working with GG UK
Eg ‘I felt alone because I had no one and it scared me. - Quote provided by Stonewall’ etc.

This is really shocking. What on earth are Stonewall’s credentials for advising other charities on policies for their residential trips and sleepovers with children... especially where these give rise to such blindingly obvious safeguarding problems?!

ADarkandStormyKnight · 05/08/2018 14:23

All the girls are vulnerable if a male bodied person is in the facilities that should be female only.

Why?

LemonJello · 05/08/2018 14:26

ADarkandStormyKnight

I haven't read the full thread

FYI- it is not polite to @ someone in to answer your questions before you have read the thread.

FloralBunting · 05/08/2018 14:29

Again with the "I would be fine with that" minimisation. It doesn't matter what you would be fine with. Women are saying they would not be fine, this is (or was) an explicitly single sex organization, therefore they can reasonably expect that, thick PJ's or no, they should not have to be in situations they are uncomfortable with. Same goes for the girls involved.

Every other consideration is secondary to safety and boundaries.

ADarkandStormyKnight · 05/08/2018 14:33

What sort of people do you think will be attracted to being GG leaders if a man can self-identify as a woman and parents won't be told if such a person is taking the girls on a trip?

That is the same anywhere, with people who want to be youth workers, work in nurseries, healthcare etc. And not all abusers are men, you know! Each applicant should be considered on their own merits, e.g. a transwoman with children of her own or step children might be a fantastic leader.

LeiaTheSlaya · 05/08/2018 14:41

Firstly, the girls are 5 -7 if I understand correctly, so I can't see many boys of this age identifying as a girl to the extent that they would be asking to attend all-girl residential trips. Your concerns seem very theoretical. It’s not theoretical if it’s GG policy to allow boys who identify as girls to join. But nice try in dismissing the points Agnes is clearly making about safeguarding. That’s something trans activist like to ignore a lot, isn’t it? Safeguarding? Processs and procedures set up to protect children from harm?

If you had been changing surely you would have gone into a cubicle and not got changed without making sure you were somewhere private where no-one could follow you in? Showing up your lack of knowledge, experience and understanding of what is involved in looking after a group of 5-7 yr olds. Did you deliberately exclude the part where Agnes confirmed a child did follow her into the toilet?

Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. This sounds sensible to me. The trans child is the vulnerable one in this situation. I would hope that a Leader would make sure a trans child was comfortable with the arrangements and had privacy if they needed it, and that if something did happen (e.g. a girl got upset) that it would be dealt with sensitively. Spoken like a true trans activist - they are 5-7 yr old girls, all vulnerable and all deserving of privacy & dignity. But again, it helps trans ideology to ‘centre’ only trans children and ignore the needs of other children who Agnes is also responsible for and has to consider their safety, privacy & dignity as well. But you keep on believing that only trans children are vulnerable & deserving of consideration.

Surely parents are made aware of the policy when they join GG, so they will have made that choice already. Again, with the selective “understanding" of what Agnes and other leaders have been saying. There has been no communication with parents, no revised terms provided to parents confirming the policy change from single sex to mixed, no information provided that makes this expressly clear to parents and a deliberate policy of silencing leaders who are questioning the wisdom of not informing parents of the change, not providing this information on planned overnight trips, to allow informed consent to mixed sex sleeping/showering facilities etc. But you keep on with that faux innocence as to what all the fuss is about.

As a parent I would trust the group to identify concerning behaviour of any nature and deal with it accordingly You cannot simply expect leaders to identify and deal with concerning behaviour on a whim - they need to have fully assessed risks & safeguarding prior to overnight trips as part of risk assessments in the planning stages. Which would be fine if GG hadn’t confirmed that they are prevented from enacting safeguarding procedures, or carrying out risk assessments by claiming that the EHRC says they can’t do so when either a trans child or adult is involved in overnight stays. But you carry on with that trust of an organisation charged with your child’s wellbeing & safety, when they don’t even comply with standard safeguarding procedures.

On another note, would parents withdraw their daughters from school if a trans girl was in their class? And if so, would it be OK for parents to remove a child because another child had, for example, a disability or a physical attribute that made them distinctive? Or if there was a lesbian in the group? This wilful stupidity is really starting to wear thin, but you keep on going with the idea that any of those categories of people have the potential to harm female children at the same rates as biologically male people. Female children are vulnerable to male pattern behaviour. Trans identity does not act as a magic wand to erase male patten behaviour that is harmful to female children.

Really? I would be fine with that, and would just pack some sturdy pyjamas to save anyone from seeing anything they don't need to. It's a public hall, with several people sleeping in it. What do you think might happen? Are you for fucking real? If anything else you have stated gave some doubt as to your “identity” I think this part really flags up who you really are. We see you.

Business trips are different - you are not on the trip to take care of children or volunteering. I think you are underestimating GGs ability to select suitable leaders. there is a vetting system in place, with DBS, personal references etc, and someone unknown to the group is unlikely to be going on a trip.. Again with the complete ignorance of how guides works, even after Agnes has explained that very circumstance in her example. It’s not just wilful ignorance here, it’s deliberate misrepresentation of Agnes’ comments and experience.

If TRAs are going to try and challenge what Agnes and others are saying, at least try and address the concerns raised, instead of this lazy and spiteful attempt to ridicule both Agnes and other leaders, and parents posting their concerns. Why not address the ‘keeping secrets’ aspect of this policy, so completely at odds with safeguarding procedures? Why not address the rights of girls to their privacy, dignity & safety? Explain why girls aren’t entitled to this when you are so certain that trans should have their needs and rights considered? Why not address why GG are keeping this policy so buried, and not flagging this up to anyone? Explain how these things are OK in your views. Don’t just bullshit people here.

FloralBunting · 05/08/2018 14:42

Oh, really? You're actually coming straight in with a NAMALT? Bold move.

LemonJello · 05/08/2018 14:42

ADarkandStormyKnight

This thread is for people who are concerned about GG new policy. If you are not concerned then that’s great, and you are unlikely to need the information and support provided by this thread.

The women here who are concerned do not necessarily have time to justify their concerns to someone who hasn’t even bothered to read the thread.

I suggest you read a bit more in order to understand the issues, and then start your own thread if you’d like to debate them.

RogerAllamsFangirl · 05/08/2018 14:43

Cool. A derailer has come along to keep bumping the thread in Active. Make sure you RTFT, newbies/lurkers.

titchy · 05/08/2018 14:44

Firstly, the girls are 5 -7 if I understand correctly,

The girls are aged from 5 to 18.

That is the same anywhere, with people who want to be youth workers, work in nurseries, healthcare etc.

But makes doing those roles wouldn't be sharing showers or bedrooms with under age girls.

And not all abusers are men, you know!

99.9%?of sex abuse perpetrators are Male.

titchy · 05/08/2018 14:44

*males not makes..

namechangedasimaguider · 05/08/2018 14:45

Well, darksndstormy, you might be ok with that, but I wouldn't and most of the leaders I know wouldn't. The only male bodied person who has slept next to me, or seen me in a state of undress is my DH, my doctor or when younger, my son.

Also, FYI, Guiding starts at age 5 with Rainbows and goes onto Rangers, who are 14-18 years. The Rangers I know have said, in my hearing but not in conversation with me, when discussing this issue regarding the possibility of a transgirl going away with them, that they would be most unhappy to share sleeping and washing/showers with a male bodied person, however they identified.

But I suppose to you, the opinions of mere females count as nothing.