Another Girlguiding update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

Apparently GG are monitoring this thread. GG - I have a daughter who is dying to join up. I won’t be letting her near your organisation because you are prioritising inclusivity above safe guarding and I believe safe guarding trumps everything. Shame on you for not protecting women and girls.

Segregating sleeping accommodation according to sex is standard safeguarding policy. Why do Girl Guides believe it is discrimination to do this? Mixed sex accommodation is massively inappropriate.

Why are GG not using th equalities act to invoke sex based exemptions,, particularly for shared accommodation on camping trips and any adults that seek to join the organisation. Is it a case where like childrens homes in the 70s they have been infiltrated already by a group of adults who may not have childrens safeguarding interests at the forefront?

I also remain shocked by GGs appealing attitude to children from cultures where mixed activities are not encouraged. It seems like two years ago we were falling over ourselves to ensure that girls like these could access some single sex activities like guides (and places of education) and know they are being thrown under the bus. GGs dismissive approach is well if they don’t want to join that’s up to them would have been called out as racist and discriminatory a couple of years ago. I cannot fathom how the leadership cannot see this.

Autocorrect hates me today - appalling not appealing

I cannot fathom how the leadership cannot see this.

Wilful blindness that will only change if parents kick up a fuss - the mgt have nothing to lose if GG gradually dies off - they will have moved on long before then - think M&S....

I don't have a personal insight into this issue, but I do have a friend who is a GG Senior Section leader - so 14 to 18 year olds. At present, the group she's has are all female, but she knows it's only a matter of time and of course, there's no knowledge of what the situation will be when they go on joint camps and trips. What seems to be distressing her the most is the secrecy. The not being allowed to tell the parents that there will be a male bodied transwoman or transgirl amongst them, if that is the case. She's not ALLOWED to let the parents and girls make their own decisions on whether they attend or not. She's banned, from giving them the information that they need to make an informed decision. She's not allowed to tell the truth. She's not allowed to speak of it. Some of her girls are not allowed, for cultural reasons, to be with males so all camps are now out of the question for them. They will not even be able to attend normal sessions if there was a transwoman or transgirl in attendence.

GG, if you're reading then I suggest you drop the Girl bit of your name and stick to just Guides, and openly state your new mixed sex status. Lying about it will only cause harm. I only hope that it's your organisation that is harmed, and not some poor child.

Sociopath - has she actually explicitly been told all that? I knew it was the rule but somehow to hear it has been cascaded through the whole org makes it seem much worse. Does that mean thousands of guide leaders have all been told this and accepted it?

I've not been told any of this officially. A few leaders I know have been told it in safeguarding training but by trainers who are clearly also confused.
We do have to redo our safeguarding training every so often and I did the first two levels online a short while ago but there's nothing on this. I imagine I'll need to do the next level in person so I'll see.
Parents are told nothing, not when they join nor when policy was changed.

It has been on the leaders part of the Girlguiding website since Jan 2017, when it changed from "single sex" to single gender.
There has not been any overall training for all leaders, and if you are not the sort to go on the Facebook groups you could well not be aware. I know a number of older leaders who "don't do" social media or use a computer unless they have to.

It says in the guidance that children should be accepted into guiding if they "identify" as a girl, and adults if they "identify" as a woman, it has been the case for a while that those with a GRC could join as adult leaders.
It states that we should not tell other parents if there is a trans girl or trans women.

Now no leader would want to up set a child, however they identify, but most I think can see obvious problems with teens especially on trips away.
I do not know why hq is pushing this so hard. If they want to do this why has there not been openness and training?

Instead leaders who question it find themselves under investigation or banned from social media guiding groups, denounced as horrible bigots and terfs. No discussion is allowed.

I have now written to the EHRC to confirm whether the Equality Act prohibits GG carrying out risk assessments and other methods of safeguarding as they claim.

Will update in due course.

Excellent lemonjello, i look forward to your update.👍

Appreciate that LemonJello

As far as I know, she's been told that the guidelines MUST be followed. That means she would be breaking their guidelines if she informed parents that a child or leader is trans. She's not allowed to inform them, because that's not fair to the trans child or leader. It makes them stand out, and makes them vulnerable.

It's a voluntary position, but her job (public sector) could be on the line if she doesn't keep her mouth closed. I expect she'll just leave GG.

And think on this,Girl Guides, assuming you are still monitoring this thread - who do you think will be drawn to an organisation dealing with female children that is prevented from carrying out risk assessments and following safeguarding procedures for those female children?

Ponder that while we wait for the response to lemonjello's request.

Spot on Leia

In the meantime, a significant proportion of the experienced leaders and helpers will have picked up their coats and left.

If you want to be a unisex organisation, MAKE it one! Make the move. Be honest about it. This underhand crap is really quite sinister.

Socio, that is my understanding too, we have to follow the guidelines on trans members.
Obviously a leader wouldn't phone round al the parents to "out" the trans child- but we are not allowed to alert parents to even the possibility.
When leaders have tried to discuss this on various leaders groups on Facebook (not official guiding groups) the mods shut down the threads and delete any 'contentious' comments.
Over Easter there were a number of threads like that, which led to a large number of guiders being temporarily banned from posting. Some of those guiders had not actually posted on the threads, which, to me, means someone is spending a lot of time trawling social media to "out" anyone who disagrees.

For some, like myself, I can just walk away, but others who work in the civil service or as teachers, to be doxxed as a "terf" could have very serious implications for their jobs.

Well, as I say, I can write a risk assessment around an SEN girl, or a leader with a health condition, without naming them. So I don't see this as legally different.

I'm astonished that GG's equality and diversity policy doesn't mention the protected characteristic of sex. For an organisation that's apparently so keen to abide by the Equalities Act, that feels like a blatant omission.

Has anyone had any conversations with them about this specifically?

I think they may have omitted it because they are allowed to discriminate on grounds of sex (men can't be leaders and boys can't be young members. You know, unless they say they have female sex).

I would leave and pull my daughter out rather than lie or be complicit in something unsafe. Shame really as Guides is such a good experience for young women and girls.

Thanks @LemonJello for your tenacity. Do keep us posted with the EHRCs response.

An earlier post mentioned age limits in the context of gender reassignment as a protected characteristic - my understanding is there is no age restriction. Only an adult over 18 can obtain a GRC, at which point they legally become the opposite sex.

Interestingly, the GG website does make multiple mentions of sex as a PC, but only in the context of the EA exemptions that allow it to restrict membership to females only. Except of course that's not quite the case any longer. It has dual criteria for membership - female sex or gender reassignment.

The policy has been badly communicated and is poorly understood. All volunteers must abide by the code of conduct, which includes following all policies. The original change to the equality and diversity policy back in January 2017 was communicated in a regular monthly update email - but it was not expressly stated, just a link to the new policy. It would be easy for leaders to miss it, let alone parents.

The equality and diversity policy is contrary to other parts of the code and policy, eg the duty to treat all members fairly, with honesty, and obtain informed consent from members and parents for all activities and events. As it stands, a leader cannot follow one part of the code without breaching another.

It's also interesting to compare how concerned leaders and parents have been treated compared to those who complain about us raising concerns. The concern raisers are given a lecture in gender theory and then told GG will not engage any further. The complainants are responded to quickly and investigations launched promptly (this is a good thing - all complaints received by an organisation entrusted with the care of 500,000 members should be taken seriously and investigated - but it should be a principle applied across the board, not selectively). One twitter trans activist who has complained to GG about this thread is boasting and posting screenshots of an emails purportedly from GGHQ, reassuring them that their complaints are being taken seriously. I don't know any one who has raised child protection concerns who has been similarly reassured by GG.

In the post Savile, Rotherham, Kids Company, Oxfam, Save the Children, Mesmac etc world, I find it incredulous that the priority seems to be reputation management and ideology, rather than addressing the safeguarding and child protection concerns.

I don't know any one who has raised child protection concerns who has been similarly reassured by GG.

What are you doing GGHQ? Think.

Just a thought would a volunteer who said they followed GG guidance despite having concerns have sufficient defence against placing a child at risk in the eyes of the law?

So Girlguiding are watching this thread?
They are investigating complaints about it?
Really? We'll investigate away - I don't think anything wrong has been said, safeguarding concerns raised, Guiding policy discussed, no one has said trans children or adults are bad or should be harmed.

So it must be the mere fact that leaders are talking about the issue in public and not agreeing with it.
How fascist of them.