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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FWR more unpleasant than ever

1000 replies

Snappity · 14/07/2018 06:43

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 16/07/2018 07:06

Limbo?

TimeLady · 16/07/2018 07:09

I don't think I could master the limbo pose when running forward though....

R0wantrees · 16/07/2018 07:20

By way of an aside, Ducking has been identified as appropriate for the female sex exclusively before.

"Crimes which warranted the use of / Method of inflicting the Ducking Stool
Different types of torture were used depending on the victim's crime and social status. There were also different tortures used according to the customs of each country. There were also different tortures used for men and women. The Ducking Stool was specifically used as a torture method for women. The device was a chair which was hung from the end of a free-moving arm. The woman was strapped into the chair which was situated by the side of a river. The device would then be swung over the river by the use of the free-moving arm. The woman would then be ducked into the freezing cold water. The length of immersion into the water was decided by the operator and the crime of which the woman was accused. It could last for just a few seconds but in some circumstances this punishment process could be continuously repeated over the course of a day.

Crimes which warranted the use of the Ducking Stool
The Ducking stool was a punishment strictly designed for women. The crimes which deemed such a punishment were prostitution and witchcraft. Scolds were also punished by this method. A scold was a term given to a gossip, shrew or bad tempered woman during the Middle Ages. A scold was defined as: "A troublesome and angry woman who by brawling and wrangling amongst her neighbours breaks the public peace, increases discord and becomes a public nuisance to the neighbourhood". The device was used in cases of witchcraft. Ducking was seen as a foolproof way to establish whether a suspect was a witch... If the 'witch' floated it was deemed that she was in league with the devil, rejecting the 'baptismal water'. If the 'witch' drowned she was deemed innocent."

www.lordsandladies.org

EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 16/07/2018 07:23

Just imagining it... you'd have to kind of fling yourself backwards while still running. It would be all too easy to end up skidding wouldn't it?

duckfuckduck · 16/07/2018 07:25

I feel my name is unfortunate, given the turn this thread has taken 😂😂😂😂

R0wantrees · 16/07/2018 07:39

duckfuckduck Grin

EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 16/07/2018 07:41

I know it's not Friday. But I'm going to share this pic of me being Sportacus anyway.

FWR more unpleasant than ever
R0wantrees · 16/07/2018 07:44

New Statesman article by Glosswitch May 2018:

'The demonisation of Mumsnet is just the latest incarnation of witch-hunting
Naturally, it frightens people to think of what a group of mothers might actually demand.

“The deliberate withdrawal of women from men has almost always been seen as a potentially dangerous or hostile act, a conspiracy, a subversion, a needless and grotesque thing.” Thus wrote Adrienne Rich in 1976’s Of Woman Born, her seminal exploration of the politics of motherhood. From the workers gossiping in the spinning circle to old wives passing down knowledge of contraception and abortion, women gathered in isolation have long been considered untrustworthy. What might they be saying? What could they be plotting? And how, above all, might they be controlled?

It’s a problem that’s never gone away, though the context has changed. Anxiety over women’s speech – fuelling violent backlash in the form of witch trials and scold’s bridles – arose at a time when, to quote Marina Warner, “women dominated the webs of information and power; the neighbourhood, the village, the well, the washing place, the shops, the stalls, the street were their arena of influence, not only the household”.

One could say things are different in 2018. Changing work patterns and the greater separation of public and private space have led to a fragmentation of female-led domestic communities. As the protagonist of Elisa Albert’s 2015 novel After Birth puts it:

Two hundred years ago – hell, one hundred years ago – you’d have a child surrounded by other women: your mother, her mother, sisters, cousins, sisters-in-law, mother-in-law. […] They’d help you, keep you company, show you how. Then you’d do the same. […] Now maybe you make a living, maybe you get to know yourself on your own terms. […] And then: unceremoniously sliced in fucking half, handed a newborn, home to your little isolation tank, get on with it, and don’t you dare post too many pictures. You don’t want to be one of those.

She’s right. While the work of gestation, birth and mothering hasn’t gone anywhere, the gatherings that sustained it – and scared the hell out of men in the process – have disintegrated. Still, though. There’s always Mumsnet." (continues)

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

AngryAttackKittens · 16/07/2018 09:11

It's kind of fascinating how scary some men find the idea of women talking to each other. Makes you wonder exactly what they think we're talking about.

sociopathsunited · 16/07/2018 09:13

They think Jane Seymour, fat Henry VIIIs third wife, died because the male doctors shoved the female midwives out of the room. The suspicion is a piece of placenta was retained, the docs didn't know anything about all that, when a midwife would have whipped it out quickly, and the poor woman died. They didn't understand birth, because they didn't have wombs.......all because they feared a group of women.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/07/2018 09:16

I wonder if they think we stir cauldrons and cackle.

(I mean, my auntie used to do that, but she was making soup.)

sociopathsunited · 16/07/2018 09:22

I've always wondered what the Masons get up to in their secret meetings. There's a masonic hall next door, and from what I can tell, it involves carrying briefcases, wearing suits, hawhawhawing loudly as the leave at fucking midnight, and, judging by the glass recycling bins, drinking heavily. Women meeting secretly though.....well, we could be up to anything! My local Woman's Rural actually has cake baking nights. Scandal, huh?

Offred · 16/07/2018 09:25

I find it slightly amusing how the sexism re women talking seems to work... Misogynists were dismissive of MN for ages because it was ‘middle class yummy mummies talking about prams’ each time they have realised MN is a place where women talk to other women about real things they have started attacking it.

Dragoncake · 16/07/2018 09:29

Competitive eye rolling?

sociopathsunited · 16/07/2018 09:38

I'd be beaten at that by the teens I know.....

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 16/07/2018 09:40

In Edinburgh, they used to execute people by chucking them in the old Nor Loch (including witches). Apparently, it was so choked with effluent that death was a sweet release. New Olympic discipline: Swimming or wading through shit?

Dragoncake · 16/07/2018 10:10

Good point sociopaths. It's a young person's sport, really.

sociopathsunited · 16/07/2018 10:13

I wonder how many skeletons there are in various rivers,lochs etc? I'd not have survived a medieval witch hunt....I intend to survive the current one though.

ToeToToe · 16/07/2018 10:13

I wonder if they think we stir cauldrons and cackle.

Now that we could make an Olympic sport Grin

YY Offred - MN has been attacked by so many already - whenever they realise this is a politically motivated site, full of often intelligent, outspoken women. From MRA groups, to F4J, to people generally whinging about how we got politicians on here for webchats pre-elections, to people just calling us a 'nest of vipers'. Now it's TRAs.

Nobody takes women's groups seriously ("I thought it was all prams and nappies") until they do - and then they attack them.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/07/2018 10:24

It's just such a fascinating study in male insecurity. If men really believed that we were naturally subservient there would be no need to put so much effort into trying to control us.

Offred · 16/07/2018 10:29

This is why I get annoyed at the conflation of interests between GC feminists and the Christian Right TBH... It’s not that they see women as ‘naturally subservient’ at all (the CR), it’s that they see women who don’t submit to it as an abomination which undermines ‘the natural order as created by God’... political conservatives who are not Christian just lose the ‘as created by God’ bit and often replace it with spurious science...

It’s totally offensive to me to be allied with that shit.

Floisme · 16/07/2018 10:31

'First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.'
Mahatma Gandhi

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:40

'First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.'

And Hello Trump. Hello Farage. Hello Corbyn. Hello trans activists saying that you can change sex.

This quote isn't one to fill me with hope tbh.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 16/07/2018 10:41

Sociopath, they found a chest after the nor loch was drained with 3 skeletons. Apparently tied it to a trial for incest of a man and 2 sisters (although the records suggested younger girl was let off). Apparently they drilled holes in the box and chucked it in.... nice.

I'd have lasted about 5 minutes in a witch trial... Mind you, it's interesting how many women voluntarily confessed. Probably because it was the first and only time that they had the power to shock and frighten and have their voice heard.

sociopathsunited · 16/07/2018 10:49

I can understand the temptation. After all,they knew they were probably doomed, so why not release a bit of rage and cause some chaos before you're sentenced to death. There's a certain recklessness in that that I appreciate. There comes a point when you know you're stuffed, go down in a blaze of fire and brimstone.

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