House of Lords debate on 'gender recognition process'

[bakingdemon]

There's a 'short debate' in the House of Lords on 'gender recognition process and the Government's LGBT action plan' this afternoon.

The Conservative peer Lord Lucas (does anyone know anything about him and what his views are likely to be?) has called it and so far the other peers who are listed as speaking are Baroness Barker, Lord Cashman, Baroness Featherstone, Baroness Gale, Lord Scriven and Baroness Williams. As at least four of those of Liberal Democrats I'm not optimistic that women's concerns about self ID will be reflected.

Details are here: calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Lords/All/2018/7/12/Daily

Oi oi

Terrible storm of hate
Inclusiveness
Hatred and vitriol

Full deck of cards

Well I'm happy, not least because a lot of what Lord Lucas and Baroness Williams have said I've written myself here on the Fem boards.

Yes to self-ID, with increased guidance and support offered to private and public enterprises to implement the Equality Act to protect their service users.

Hopefully we can all stop being at each other's throats before too long.

So we are unterfeminists

Of course you're happy some important people were unpleasant about women. It's that TRA tingle. Mmmmmmmm!

Imagine being happy that women will no longer be able to be anywhere without dick, and won't even be able to express their distress about it because that would be illegal! That's some sad and nasty rocks you're getting off on right there. 😷

Hadn't even read that far down Pratchet, I don't want or need anybody to say nasty things about you. I was talking specifically about the quoted words of the two people I named. They didn't slag you off.

You really, really want to think I'm a terrible human being don't you. I can't possibly be a quite reasonable, non-woman-hating, not totally dim woman who simply doesn't agree with you, can I. Well whatever, at least the Lords and Baronesses can't be fucked turning this into playground wars.

Why don't you read before commenting?
You want self ID, that's what self ID is. Distressed women make you happy? Looks like it.

I think they are actually Rat. They say we're hateful, they think we're like nazis. Fuck them.

Oi oi Rat's happy tho

Er, I did read the statements of the people I commented about

Whatever.

I think they are actually Rat. They say we're hateful, they think we're like nazis. Fuck them

That was Lady Featherstone, not the two people I NAMED in my post.

Here go celebrate no female only place women and girls, you must be delighted.

And they made you happy. Yes, you said. Hence my observations.

How dare Lady Featherstone? How much does she know of the historical and contemporary struggles of women? How dare she tell those who seek to protect female-only spaces to show humanity and kindness? How dare she profess to know how much giving, giving, giving I and many other women have already done in my life to make men’s lives easier?!? I have nothing left to give. I have no humanity left, because I have been de-humanised by rape, abuse and control and it saddens me to see women told to be ‘nice’ when they protest the erosion of their spaces. Who is being nice to us?!?

She shouldn't even have a say, she lost her seat.

Karata 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Yeah, Lord Lucas seems to understand what a lot of TRAs don't about sex, gender and the implications of women of wilfully conflating the two

I don't think he understands the difference between sex and gender, though.

Over the centuries, labelling people as men and women has led, particularly for women, to serious, crippling oppression, to limitation of their lives and to there being a whole list of things that women are not supposed to do because they are women.

That is not about "labelling people as men and women". That is about stereotyping what men and women can do. Men and women are biological descriptors based on sex, but he is using them as stereotypes based on sex.

I think that that shows in the various world records for the two genders.

And here he actually means 'sexes'.

If we are not using gender—sex—as the discriminator, what will we do?

Definitely doesn't understand the distinction between sex and gender.

But despite this confusion, he appears to be in favour of keeping protection for women and children in place.

Cashman openly hates women. He’s awful.

What an ignorant Aunt Featherstone is.

Lord Lucas seems to get it (despite mixing sex & gender) & he is not a Follower of Genderism:
"None of us men has ever given birth"

Rat, if you think for one minute that women are going to back down and be quiet if self ID goes through you’re going tone sorely disappointed.

Carry on celebrating the destruction of women’s rights. We who care about those rights will never, ever stop fighting for them. Sorry about that.

RatRolyPoly
I would have thought the only people who would counter him would be anyone who...didn't want trans women in women's sports

I assume from this that you DO want transwomen in women's sports.

Can you explain to me how that won't (a) pose physical risks to girls and women, (b) result in entirely unfair competition and (c) ultimately bring about an end to women competing in their own sports?

Two comments worth noting:

This from Baroness Williams, responding for the Government

^My noble friend Lord Lucas talked about single-sex services such as women’s refuges, which has come up time and time again in the discussions I have had. Again, we do not intend to change the existing safeguards in the Equality Act that protect vulnerable women. It will continue to allow organisations to provide single-sex and separate-sex services, and, in circumstances, exclude people identifying as transgender provided that doing so can be convincingly demonstrated to be a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. This, however, is a sensitive area, and I know we will have many discussions on it. We have issued very clear guidance to service providers on how to deal respectfully with transgender people. However, I have been told that transgender people are incredibly shy about sharing changing rooms, so what has stood well for 14 years is not about to change.*

(She still seems to think in terms of old school transsexuals, not Travis Alawhatsit... )

And from Lord Cashman

it gives us an opportunity to address the dangerous vacuum created by the failure to bring forward earlier the consultation on the Gender Recognition Act. Into this vacuum has crept myth, misrepresentation, hatred and the defamation of trans people, in particular trans women. It is therefore vital that, during consultation on the Gender Recognition Act, we move the debate back to facts and evidence.

Yes, facts and evidence would be lovely. Let's stick to facts - a man cannot give birth, and a woman does not have a penis, for example

Lady Featherstone sounds utterly clueless.

There are some feminists who have brought shame, I think, to the name of feminist by the level of hatred and vitriol that they have levelled at trans women.

I wonder who fed her that bit of misinformation? Has she seen the hatred and vitriol levelled at feminists by transactivists?

They should be welcoming and understanding to these new women. They should have humanity, kindness and inclusiveness in their souls.

I wonder if she thinks humans can change sex?

So to the faux feminists I say: regain your humanity and understanding.

Self-ID for trans, but not self-ID for feminists. I wonder if she has considered the possibility that some people who self-ID as trans might be faux trans if we make it too easy to do so?

I assume from this that you DO want transwomen in women's sports.

Can you explain to me how that won't (a) pose physical risks to girls and women, (b) result in entirely unfair competition and (c) ultimately bring about an end to women competing in their own sports?

Yes I can Caribou. But luckily for me I don't have to, because I've already put in countless hours explaining exactly those things here on MN. I've linked only one of many threads (more available on request) where a pretty full overview of the concerns and considerations of sports governing bodies is given, fully in line with statements made by the IAAF since the time of this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228541-Max-testosterone-level-for-trans-athletes-to-be-halved

FYI you're talking to a sportswoman.