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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Lords debate on 'gender recognition process'

127 replies

bakingdemon · 12/07/2018 09:47

There's a 'short debate' in the House of Lords on 'gender recognition process and the Government's LGBT action plan' this afternoon.

The Conservative peer Lord Lucas (does anyone know anything about him and what his views are likely to be?) has called it and so far the other peers who are listed as speaking are Baroness Barker, Lord Cashman, Baroness Featherstone, Baroness Gale, Lord Scriven and Baroness Williams. As at least four of those of Liberal Democrats I'm not optimistic that women's concerns about self ID will be reflected.

Details are here: calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Lords/All/2018/7/12/Daily

OP posts:
KataraJean · 12/07/2018 13:49

the discriminatory practices which allow women male-free spaces

I find this sentence really chilling. Women are not to be allowed to have any spaces to call their own, without males being present (or having the right to be present).

OldCrone · 12/07/2018 13:57

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Lord Lucas said:
Women-only toilets may fade anyway (the younger generation seem largely unfussed) – but bathing, or refuges?

I didn't read that as him saying we didn't need single-sex facilities. I read it as an assumption that if younger people don't care about single-sex toilets, then in time they will no longer be required. It rather depends on whether they change their minds in 10 or 20 years time when they have experienced the things you mention, or if single-sex toilets just start to look like something we no longer need.

I also read it that he thinks bathing and refuges require a bit more consideration with regard to being single-sex.

The way he has worded it, "to allow women male-free spaces." seems to indicate that he doesn't think transwomen are women.

Urbanbeetler · 12/07/2018 13:58

I do think a major motivator for the government is money. The de-medicalisation of the grc means the hugely growing queues of people waiting for treatment just goes away.

OldCrone · 12/07/2018 14:04

KataraJean

I'm not sure what he means by that either, but the next sentence doesn't seem to imply that he wants to remove all women-only spaces, as he recognises the effect on women.
We should have a wide, slow discussion – a lot of women (in particular) will be affected.

It is a discriminatory practice to allow women male-free spaces, and revisiting that to look at why they were created and why they are still necessary for women is not necessarily a bad thing.

RatRolyPoly · 12/07/2018 14:13

the discriminatory practices which allow women male-free spaces

I find this sentence really chilling. Women are not to be allowed to have any spaces to call their own, without males being present (or having the right to be present).

I don't think he means anything negative by the word "discriminatory". The discriminatory practices he refers to are just that; discriminatory. Some discrimination is a good thing, and a perfectly legal thing, which protects people in one group or another.

BettyDuMonde · 12/07/2018 14:22

I think I agree with Rat here.

In a old posh man’s world discrimination has different meaning ‘discriminating taste’ etc.

I think he has presented a neutral framework with clear definitions. If self ID is just for ‘Gender’ not ‘Sex’ and we can legally discriminate against people of the opposite sex, regardless of gender, I wouldn’t have a problem with self ID at all.

Crime stats, sports etc should all be sorted by sex though, gender is mostly irrelevant because not everyone has one. Like religion.

KataraJean · 12/07/2018 14:23

Okay, it just gave me the shudders having been in a coercive control relationship where I was allowed no space or time to myself without it being monitored.

Discrimination tends to be perceived as a negative thing. I mean, some safe spaces are there as a result of protective practices.

OldCrone · 12/07/2018 14:24

The discriminatory practices he refers to are just that; discriminatory. Some discrimination is a good thing, and a perfectly legal thing, which protects people in one group or another.

At least we can agree on something, Rat Smile

OldCrone · 12/07/2018 14:29

If self ID is just for ‘Gender’ not ‘Sex’ and we can legally discriminate against people of the opposite sex, regardless of gender, I wouldn’t have a problem with self ID at all.

Crime stats, sports etc should all be sorted by sex though, gender is mostly irrelevant because not everyone has one. Like religion.

Totally agree. The problems all seem to have come about from the conflation of sex and gender.

RatRolyPoly · 12/07/2018 14:31

At least we can agree on something, Rat

You're as pleased as I am OldCrone! Smile

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 12/07/2018 15:11

I hope you are right Old Crone.

jellyfrizz · 12/07/2018 15:24

The problems all seem to have come about from the conflation of sex and gender.

^^ As always, it comes back to this.

BiologyIsReal · 12/07/2018 19:02

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/12/conservative-peer-wear-a-dress-to-house-of-lords/

No comment necessary

OvaHere · 12/07/2018 19:14

Penis News cherry picked that article. Below is the full transcript.

Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, I welcome wholeheartedly the Government’s LGBT Action Plan and I urge all noble Lords to consider contributing to the consultation. I will concentrate on just one aspect, which is gender. In that area, there are radical effects that go well beyond the LGBT community. The Government’s proposal to amend the Gender Recognition Act 2004 so that a wholehearted commitment to change gender should be enough and that we should do away with the current hurdles that have to be leapt are proposals that I entirely support—but, if we are moving to a world where it will become commonplace, if uncommon, for men to have babies and women to have penises, that is the end of the fiction of binary gender. I absolutely think that that is good for us all.

Of course, biological sex is mostly binary. There are distributions around the two modes and there are some people who are in between, but the pattern is pretty binary. Behavioural gender is not. There are not two genders, and nor are there many genders, as some people have contended. Gender cannot be counted or clearly defined. We can distinguish male typical expression and female typical expression, but there is an immense amount of crossover and interpenetration. The Telegraph said a couple of days ago, with reference to the Thai cave rescue, that the rescuers were demonstrating typical male virtues like courage—phooey. Courage as a male virtue? None of us men has ever given birth. Does that not take courage? It is a ridiculous idea that courage is a male virtue. No, these are human virtues. To some extent there is a distribution, but it is absolutely not something that can be separated into two genders, and we should not let ourselves be defined by labels.

Over the centuries, labelling people as men and women has led, particularly for women, to serious, crippling oppression, to limitation of their lives and to there being a whole list of things that women are not supposed to do because they are women. There is no good reason for it, and many of us have spent a chunk of our lives in this place fighting against it and trying to make it possible for more women to be engineers, more men to be primary teachers and things like that. The use of gender as a binary concept has done nothing but hinder us as individuals and as a society.

Gender is an obstacle to our self-expression and to equality. Who should care if men choose to wear pink dresses and make-up or if women climb trees and have hairy armpits? Why should any of us try to make people behave in ways that they choose not to when we are quite happy to let other people behave in exactly those ways merely because we assign them to a different gender? It is time that we took advantage of this liberalisation which the Government are looking at to free up the world for all of us. It is not that I expect things to change fast. On the odd hot day, I might choose to wear a dress. My goodness, a suit and tie in this place does not go very well. Besides, apart from the odd pink tie, we are not really allowed to be colourful these days—although I can show off the lining of my jacket. The restrictions that we put ourselves under because of gender are entirely unreasonable. I congratulate the Government on opening the challenge to that, and I hope that this is something that they will allow us all to take advantage of.

However, because it is such a radical change, it will have predictable problems. To pick an obvious one, there is women’s sport. We separate women’s sport because testosterone, in particular, has an effect on the development of the male body which means that males generally show greater strength and endurance—characteristics which allow them to perform better at sport. I think that that shows in the various world records for the two genders. If we are to allow someone whose body has been formed by testosterone to compete as a woman in women’s sport, that is a question which we must look at. Is that what we intend? Is that fair? Is that the way we want the world to be? We would be affecting an awful lot of women by allowing a few men to compete in women’s sport. Imagine the noble Lord, Lord Addington, coming down at you in women’s rugby. It would not be fun. We need to think through these things because we are opening the door to them.

There are lots of ways in which we reserve spaces for women: because they want to be naked in them, because they want to take refuge in them, because they want to perceive themselves as safe. I remember long campaigns in this place to make sure that we had sufficient single-sex NHS wards. We need to think how that will change. If we are not using gender—sex—as the discriminator, what will we do? Will we have people taking individual, risk-based decisions? If so, we need clear guidelines so that they can be confident in the decisions that they take.

We need to look at the practice. In some ways we are much better at his than the US. We need to look at the practice of allowing children’s bodies to be chemically and physically altered because of a perceived difference between their body and the gender that they perceive themselves to be. If we are getting ourselves to a position where gender does not matter any more, why are we considering allowing that to be done to children? Adults, yes, but why do we allow it for children? We need to look at that with great care.

So I hope that, in the course of this consultation, the Government will address these problems which they are—rightly—exacerbating and which will cause much pain if we do not address them. I wish them great courage—as an ungendered virtue—in that.

BettyDuMonde · 12/07/2018 19:22

I’m pretty happy with that as a start point, as it goes.

High five for Lord Lucas!

OvaHere · 12/07/2018 19:32

I’m pretty happy with that as a start point, as it goes.

Shame about Baroness Featherstone (LD) doing her best Aunt Lydia impression. She clearly understands nothing of what women have faced in this debate and probably got all her info from Mermaids.

Shut up nasty women and do as you're told.

Personally I think we've come to understand the various factions to this 'community' quite well.

I came to speak in this debate today because I am an uber-feminist. There are some feminists who have brought shame, I think, to the name of feminist by the level of hatred and vitriol that they have levelled at trans women. That is why I am standing here today. How little they understand this community. They should be welcoming and understanding to these new women. They should have humanity, kindness and inclusiveness in their souls. This fanatical assault is not feminism, it is false protectionism—mistaken protectionism. So to the faux feminists I say: regain your humanity and understanding. To be trans is challenging enough—with the sort of challenges that you have to go through to work in a world that has traditionally been totally binary and is now coming to grips with the fact that perhaps it is not the way we all thought it was. The attempted suicide rate should be indication enough that this is a community that needs our love and support. I am glad that we are going to try to do better.

OlennasWimple · 12/07/2018 19:34

Yeah, Lord Lucas seems to understand what a lot of TRAs don't about sex, gender and the implications of women of wilfully conflating the two

BettyDuMonde · 12/07/2018 19:39

Baroness Williams’ closing part rather waters down Baronness Featherstone though, thankfully!

House of Lords debate on 'gender recognition process'
Pratchet · 12/07/2018 19:41

Barker and Cashman have previously displayed misogynistic behaviour.

Floorplan · 12/07/2018 19:41

Lady Featherstone loves us:
I came to speak in this debate today because I am an uber-feminist. There are some feminists who have brought shame, I think, to the name of feminist by the level of hatred and vitriol that they have levelled at trans women. That is why I am standing here today. How little they understand this community. They should be welcoming and understanding to these new women. They should have humanity, kindness and inclusiveness in their souls. This fanatical assault is not feminism, it is false protectionism—mistaken protectionism. So to the faux feminists I say: regain your humanity and understanding. To be trans is challenging enough—with the sort of challenges that you have to go through to work in a world that has traditionally been totally binary and is now coming to grips with the fact that perhaps it is not the way we all thought it was. The attempted suicide rate should be indication enough that this is a community that needs our love and support. I am glad that we are going to try to do better

Pratchet · 12/07/2018 19:42

Thank you for the information and links.

Floorplan · 12/07/2018 19:43

Lady Feather
My noble friend is right: the trans community is under a sustained and vicious attack at the moment. More than ever, the rest of us need to try to understand them better and to give them as much support as we possibly can as they weather a terrible storm of hate.

Pratchet · 12/07/2018 19:43

Faux feminists tho innit

Floorplan · 12/07/2018 19:43

Sorry

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