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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby has had facial feminisation surgery

163 replies

gendercritter · 10/07/2018 14:46

Apparently in response to online trolls.

And do you know what, for the first time I feel sad for India. It looks like brutal surgery. India said India had it done to be accepted as a female but that is never truly going to happen, if people are being honest.

The thing that struck me in CBB when India was jabbing India's finger at the woman present and yelling 'I am a woman' was how male India looked. There was a shot taken from behind and I read what I saw as a man with a ponytail. There was absolutely no getting away from the fact you were seeing a male physique.

I am still capable of feeling lots of other things for this individual alongside sadness but I do hate to think of people being so ill at ease with themselves.

OP posts:
EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 10/07/2018 16:48

This must be what Miranda Yardley meant when he talked about it being cruel to perpetuate the delusion.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 16:51

Thanks for sharing gendercritter. Glad it's gone well for you. I wonder if people get used to just shoving the awareness to the back of their minds? But I imagine facial feminisation must be extreme for that sensation. I wonder if Bergdorf, Lees, etc feel as facially numb as if they're still anaesthetised.

SPOFS · 10/07/2018 16:58

I have sympathy for most transgender people, but I have none for India.

India is a misogynistic ageist bully. In the BB house, India only shouted and screamed at the women, which says it all. India does not respect women, so I do not respect India.

loveyouradvice · 10/07/2018 17:55

SPOFS I agree...

And yes when I read this I thought I do feel sorry for India being in such pain and so deluded....

but then I read the interview ROwan posted and thought HOW HOW....

How can anyone actually read Mumsnet and see this? How delusioned are they?

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 18:06

16th April 2018
Justine Roberts interviewed by Julia Hartley Brewer Talk Radio about pressure on Mumsnet (at about 09:20). Also featuring India Willoughby

India specifically insisted people come and check out Mumsnet (having helpfully warned them that although they might think it a nice cosy 'coffee morning type place') it was actually a site 'percolating hatred' India especially directed people to the 'I am Sparticus' threads by way of example as this was all about 'outing' people.
JHB said 'if you still have a penis then you're a man'... later on she said she was going to look at the Spartacus thread.

Julia H-B commented the next day that she did not see transphobia.

What Justine said:
"I think the problem with this is that the trans lobby have confused an issue about people quite rightfully sticking up for the idea of hard won women's rights around....(interrupted but early JR said women's refuge and rape counselling as examples)

The upshot of the change to the legislation that's been asked for around self-identity, is that you are putting women, including transgender women quite frankly in vulnerable positions potentially.
We need to be able to discuss if we are changing legislation, and for very good reasons because I am totally in favour of recognition, equality and fair treatment of all individuals and letting them live how they live.
But we need to be able to discuss these competing rights and it needs to not just be shut down....and I'm afraid and to be honest India you've got to see the other point of view, you can't just plough on with the [position] 'our issue is the only important one"

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3222471-AIBU-to-be-extremely-proud-of-Justine-Roberts-Mumsnet-right-now

IAmLurkacus · 10/07/2018 18:14

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Bespin · 10/07/2018 18:25

what India as had more facial surgery well good for her if it will make her happier

Imnobody4 · 10/07/2018 18:29

That's a big 'if' Bespin.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 18:29

India as had more facial surgery well good for her if it will make her happier

Definitely agreeBespin.

But that's a bit of a non-story usually isn't it; 'adult has plastic surgery to face'?
Not usually a reason for an article in the Daily Mail or interview on This Morning.

Bejazzled · 10/07/2018 18:31

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loveyouradvice · 10/07/2018 18:33

Lurk totally agree... and my understanding from the magnificent Miranda Yardley was that when they trasitioned a good deal of time and effort was put into enabling transexuals to understand the reality o life post - op i.e. how the world would see you, amongst others - plenty of time for psychological reflection and less opportunity to emerge deluded....

It's very sad that they cannot see they will never be seen as a woman, by many people. Why don't Drs/ psychologists prepare these patients for the reality?

So in response to this - I think they did when NHS treated it as genuine dysphoria of the few.... but now they are overwhelmed AND PROBABLY MORE IMPORTANTLY the trans-orthodoxy NHS has signed up for in many cases prescribes exploring what it really means, with acceptance and support rather than questioning and explorin being the approach adopted now...

Means too many will be deluded ... and unhappy ... and perpetuation of I imagine mental anguish unabated by surgery

busyboysmum · 10/07/2018 18:44

I always think of Pete Burns and what a mess he made of himself when I hear of TW having plastic surgery. Presumably he would be claiming to be a woman if he were around still.

IAmLurkacus · 10/07/2018 18:45

Love Miranda Yardley and her ‘Are you high’ responses to deluded lunatics on twitter!

MrBig1 · 10/07/2018 18:49

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 10/07/2018 18:50

IW says: Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution.

And yet trans groups never turn up to debate. Individuals turn up every so often but it's fair to say they never engage in what I'd recognise as debate, just make bald, unconvincing assertions. If their arguments are so persuasive why aren't they here to put their case?

We know why, and they do too. If you scrutinize their arguments they fall apart. As @Mogleflop said on another thread if you can't articulate what you mean, it's hard to discuss it.

Hence the attempts to silence critics, hashtag nodebate and suchlike.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 10/07/2018 18:51

As far as I'm aware Pete Burns never questioned his biological sex....

placemats · 10/07/2018 18:54

India looks way better with darker hair.

It's India's personality that needs feminising.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 10/07/2018 18:58

I read an article about facial feminisation in the Times Saturday Magazine.

It's brutal. Apparently there is a bone ridge above the occipital bone which need to be shaved down, and the jaw needs slimming down and the Adam's apple shaving.

There were photos, but many of the examples just would not pass, and quite a few kept their genitals.

I have not seen a photo of India post FF surgery, so cannot comment whether India would pass.

It just seems. well, brutal for some questionable benefits.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 19:05

Can you imagine another newsreader / celebrity being interviewed about anything without also being asked as an aside, about their article in which they characterise Mumsnet being akin to the National Front / Nazis etc?

I have no interest in what India looks like but I do think that words matter. There's a huge amount going on in that article. India was/is a journalist, so are those conducting the interviews.

Hmm
R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 19:13

Love Miranda Yardley and her ‘Are you high’ responses to deluded lunatics on twitter!

Miranda comments:
'Why I Am Permanently Banned From Twitter And Why This Should Make You Worry
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

attributed to George Orwell

I have been permanently banned from Twitter. The reason for this ban is given as follows:

'Violating our rules against hateful conduct.

You may not promote violence against, threaten or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability or serious disease.' (continues)

It’s interesting the rules about what is hateful appear not to extend to one glaringly obvious category – biological sex. And it is this that reveals the real agenda that lies behind this curtailment of freedom of speech and the ability to state the truth:

This is not about me. This is part of a much larger, broader attack on the rights of women.

If women are now no longer able to publicly acknowledge that an adult human male is a man, this takes away from women the ability to describe their own lived lives: they can no longer use meaningful language to describe their interactions with members of the dominant sex class:

Women lose the language and ability to differentiate between themselves and the dominant sex class;
Women lose the language and ability to describe themselves even as women;
Women lose the language, right and ability to describe the perpetrators and acts of sexual violence;
Women lose the right to challenge the sexual enslavement and exploitation of members of their own sex class.
We are in a world of proscribed truth and compelled thought. Whatever your political stance, this should should strike you cold with terror." (continues)

mirandayardley.com/en/i-permanently-banned-twitter-make-worry/

BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 19:13

The fact Pete Burns stayed Pete all his life, despite knowing plenty of trans people* suggests not - but then, he came of age when there tons of very cool GNC men all over the place. The surgery thing was an awful shame though, he was utterly beautiful when Dead or Alive were in their heyday.

*I met him at a Jayne County and the Electric Chairs gig at Madam JoJos. Jayne was an out and proud transwoman.

gendercritter · 10/07/2018 20:04

what India as had more facial surgery well good for her if it will make her happier

As long as India is aware it doesn't make India female.

No adaptation that a man makes to himself is ever going to. I feel like India doesn't understand that. They are chasing something that is unobtainable. I feel like this has mostly been done for validation which will never be forthcoming - like I said, that is very sad.

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R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 20:20

November 2017 interview with India Willoughby re self id & changing rooms.

On the thread discussing it OP wrote:
"Saw this clip of India Willoughby with another transgender woman call Talulah. They were discussing, on This Morning, the implications of the Top Shop policy on gender neutral changing rooms.
From my point I think it's a bit ridiculous that a shop that caters to, mostly, young girls and woman needs space for men identifying as woman - that day/moment.
India was giving arguments that I've heard woman use. I think she really believes she is a biological woman and that others are "pretenders" and so uses arguments that, so-called, TERFS use which I find interesting.

However, I think India has a phobia for hair on either women or men - she didn't like the idea of sharing space with a hairy transgender, she's said in the past women with hairy legs are disgusting and dirty. She does have a thing for the hair smile

Also, why didn't This Morning has a natal woman on to discuss the issue that, after all said and done, effects natal woman and girls."

cf India's comments in the Pink News article posted earlie:

"I totally get why many women might have concerns about this, given there have been so many ridiculous over-the-top debates where the scenario of sex-offender in a dress is trotted out.

It just doesn’t bear up to scrutiny though. Honestly. Self-identification in no way incentivises someone to commit a sex offence. It doesn’t make it easier or more likely.

Waving a piece of paper or shouting “I’m a woman” is not going to buy any leniency from the police or courts.

I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria."

GardenGeek · 10/07/2018 20:24

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

terryleather · 10/07/2018 20:32

*Betty
*
I'd forgotten all about Jayne County!

^"You think that you're hot shit I heard, you ain't nothin' but a cold turd"
^
I thought that was the best line ever when I was a teen goth...I feel very old.......

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