Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

Good to know your opinion.

Sorry Mogle

Meant to say
Snappity Good to know your opinion.

Ah, so we've given up on the "biological elitism" thing now since it was convincing absolutely nobody.

There are some privileges that women have enjoyed, but they are few and far between compared with the oppression.

As for women trying to exclude trans women, in what way are they 'excluding' them?

1. Men also don't much fancy their daughters being exposed to penis owners under the guise of 'I feel like being a woman'

2. Men are not allowed into female areas. I don't feel excluded or that women are exerting a privilege. I feel happy to oblige their request because I want them to feel safe, and entirely agree with measures to safeguard them.

3. They want to protect you too, they want to include you in feeling safe, they understand how many transpeople could feel oppressed and the subject of prejudice. They just don't want to take your cock to make you feel loved, or run the risk of not being able to differentiate a mild mannered and safe trans from a predatory jock in a frock, or violence threating TRA.

and 'enjoyed' is a turn of phrase rather than something that's actually given pleasure. For instance men being conscripted, and women not isn't really something women 'enjoyed' per se.

When women try to exclude trans women, that is privilege. It is attempting to use superior numbers = superior power to deprive a minority (trans women) of rights.

No, it's not. HTH.

Superior numbers? I thought [word redacted by mn] were a minority?

Snappity, what rights are we trying to deprive transpeople of?

Because defining and enshrining rights for women based on biological sex isn’t about deprivation.

Human rights aren’t like a cake, there isn’t a finite number of slices. We can have rights based on biological sex AND rights based on gender presentation.

Yes.

LGB people faced similar persecution based on similar arguments. Your treatment of the T is the same.

Privileges that women have enjoyed historically or currently:

1. being able to grow and feed babies with our bodies (though not all of us, and the same privilege is also a significant source of our oppression)

2. not being conscripted to the army (though it was men who started the wars, and it is men who continue to bar women from combat roles)

3. having bodies with a predisposition to lay down fat reserves that help us survive better during times of famine (because we have to be able to cope with less food, as stronger people - aka men - can take food away from us)

4. Um.....

LGB people faced similar persecution based on similar arguments. Your treatment of the T is the same.

But what the T is doing is not the same as the LGB is it? Trans people have rights against discrimination and ill treatment. They have to accept that they cannot have rights to be treated as natal women for ALL purposes, such as sports and prisons. I am afraid there is no other way around it- otherwise women's rights are encroached on. The way that trans women feel about not wanting to share spaces with natal men? Well, that's how women feel about sharing spaces with male-bodied trans women with intact genitalia. No difference. If trans women don't want to share with men, campaign for third spaces. You can't say that you should have the right to choose who you share with but that women should be deprived of that choice.

My nanna had to sign up for WW2 - she thought she’d be ok because she worked in a shoe factory and shoe manufacturing was an essential part of the war effort.
Unfortunately she operated the machine that punched the decorative holes in brogues and decorative holes were not essential. She was the only woman in the factory that wasn’t allowed to stay for the duration.

She chose the RAF because ‘the uniform colour suited me better’.

I have asked myself this many times! Done some deep soul-searching!
Some of the points that made me reach my conclusion:

1. medicalisation of children - children are legally not able to consent to lots of things (which is why we don't let them have sex or control lots of money), because they aren't able to fully understand the implications of what they're doing, so it's not fair to allow them to suffer the consequences of (potentially) bad decisions, for example like getting pregnant or being sterile or going bankrupt!

1. I was/am "gender non-conforming" myself. At 8, I remember wishing I'd been a boy. I hated pink and dresses and hockey and just wanted to play outside and climb trees. I'm now considering starting a family, and having felt a little of the pain of being extremely broody, I can't imagine how awful it'd be if I'd been "transitioned" and was now unable to have kids. It's been 20 years since then, but I've learnt that I didn't have a problem being a girl, I had a problem with what other people expected "girl" to mean.

I couldn't agree more with this:
My question to you is: Do you think TRAs ever stop and ask 'are we the baddies?'

I was once discussing my teaching skills with a (very talented and experienced) colleague, and I asked "do you ever worry if you're good enough?", They said, "if you're asking the question, you're ok, it's the people who think they're fine and don't need to change that are the problem"
This is kind of the same - If you're asking this question, you are being compassionate, and trying to see all viewpoints.

When women try to exclude trans women, that is privilege. It is attempting to use superior numbers = superior power to deprive a minority (trans women) of rights.

Keyword there is "try", we can't. At this stage, every male newborn might as well be issued with a female birth certificate in case they decide they are a women later in life and then they won't have to deal with any uppity women who have had the "privilege" of being assigned female at birth "gate-keeping" access to sex-segregated public services or stopping them competing in women's sports.

Why don't you ever talk about how the fact that trans women can't use men's toilets due to the treat of male violence is the result of men using their privilege "to deprive a minority (trans women) of rights"... One right being the right to access public toilets without the risk of violence.

Snappity - when men claim to be women so that they can indulge their sexual fetishism in a way that makes it impossible for women to object - that is male privilege. When men claim that women's single sex exemptions and sexual boundaries are 'literal violence' - that is male privilege. When men claim women are doing feminism wrong - that is male privilege.

*treat = threat (what a typo)

Women - we want to not be property, we want the vote

70s feminists - well, we already have that. We want control of our bodily autonomy and to make it easier to divorce, maybe a few places for women in DV to escape to would be nice too?

LGB - well, we already all of have that. We want the right for our orientation not to be illegal, to marry or live with whoever we want, to have children our own children or to adopt. That'd be cool.

Trans - well, we already have all of that. We want the entire of humanity to bend to our will and accept our ideology as fact. On pain of being thrown in a volcano. #nodebate

I have fought for the rights of women and others who are marginalized within our Patriarchal society my entire life. When I first began to questions the transgender narrative, I was horrified; I felt like I was a traitor.

But the more I delved down into it, the more I realized it's not trans people I'm against; it's trans activists who promote the medicalization of children and the erasure of women's sex-specific spaces.

My first post was in response to something Snappity posted. I of course question every day whether I'm one of the baddies... I'm human, my heart is not made of stone and I empathise immensely with challenges trans women face in public life even though I don't agree with the ideology behind their status. I'm pro women's rights, but I understand public life can't really practically function based on anyone's ideology... Compromises have to be made on some people's rights and beliefs to facilitate functionally... I really don't want anyone excluded from public life... I'm just annoyed that it always seems to be females that have to sacrifice rights.. many of which are still hot of the press in the UK and still being fought for overseas.

"Are we the baddies?"

Here is one inalienable truth. Almost all people that disagree with each other think that they are the good guys.
Norm MacDonald once said The idiot sees the world as good vs Evil
The cynic sees the world as evil vs evil
The truth that no one seems able to see is that the world is, and always has been, a battle of good vs good.
So everyone that annoys you thinks they are right but so do you and that annoys them.

raggydoll made me LOL walking the dogs