Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

I think we should take up Snappity's suggestion- all women's toilets to have a height restriction, like Alton Towers. Anyone over 5'8"" does not have the FEAMLE FEELS.

we have the preconditions for totalitarianism

Rose of Dawn, produced a video identifying & discussing the TRA thread which runs through Action for Trans Health, some prominant NUS officers, Antifa & the assault on Maria Machlaclan.

Rose of Dawn is transsexual and was invited to the GenderQuake debate but, like many others with in the audience with important perspectives, not given the opportunity to speak.

She writes about the video:
'What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?'
"Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community.

Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn "

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3iAnSSIP4

I wonder if this is why some GC women feel that there is no safe haven for them.

Authority (Mordaunt), halo organisations, assorted celebrities, self-declared progressives are all declaring GC women = bigots on this issue and skirting with being adjacent to hate crimes through wrongthink and wrongspeak.

So many GC women can't discuss the issue at work or with family & friends. #nodebate Does anybody worry about what they'd have to do if for some reason their workplace (or a new employer) asked them to sign up explicitly to honouring their various policies? I have several sets of forms to fill in for a committee (couldn't be more science or evidence-based) and I'm genuinely wondering if we're expected not to ask what some of these policies are (explicitly names trans inter alia) or if we ought to enquire so that it's known that we work in a non-science/evidence framework for some topics.

Gaslighting at a societal level and in more intimate settings such as the workplace, social areas, civic participation, and the home. I wonder if at some point we'll undergo an Invasion of the Bodysnatchers experience in which we speak to someone who we think will understand only to them point at us and hear the piercing shriek.

100% what Mogleflop said. And, indeed, most of the comments on this thread. Thank you OP for the post - like you all it's a question I seem to be asking myself on an almost daily basis. It's disheartening to be told that you're bigoted and on the wrong side of history, when, being a decent person, who most definitely does not hate people (well, a certain load of right wing politicians excepting), I really don't think I am. I just find myself getting so mad, frustrated and very afraid at the way this is going, and the fact that even questioning it and discussing this bonkers denial of biological facts, let alone the legitimate concerns of women, get's you labeled a TERF, a bigot, a transphobe etc. Feels like MN is one of the few places you can openly discuss this without getting shouted down. And because we're intelligent, rational, decent people, we do examine and analyze our positions as well as others'. Refreshing to know I am not going mad! No, I fundamentally believe we are not the baddies.

Does anybody worry about what they'd have to do if for some reason their workplace (or a new employer) asked them to sign up explicitly to honouring their various policies?

I think lots of people worry about this, Arran. This is unlikely to affect me because I'm on sickness benefit long term, but I have heard enough on Mumsnet to know that teachers and HCP are being bound to the wheel of gender and forced to regurgitate its often preposterous assertions.

It applies to the voluntary sector too. Women with many years supporting Guiding are having to shut up or resign.

Scary, dystopian stuff.

I feel sadness for those suffering with gender dysphoria, who radically alter their appearance surgically or with hormones to try accept themselves. I think changing one's identity must be tough emotionally, physically, socially. I want trans gender people to be afforded equality, dignity & respect in the law and in society. I am, by instinct, a tolerant, liberal person.

However, I don't want the law to allow any old bloke in a dress to self declare and invade my privacy/safety. I don't want lesbians to feel like they can't say no to a penis. I want to be able to talk about my experience/biology without having my language policed. I don't want my daughters to never win at sport, no matter how hard they train.

The tension between the personal (feeling supportive/accepting of trans individuals) and the political (disliking the transactivist movement's objectives & methods) is why this is so fraught. It's why we have moments of doubt about 'being on the wrong side of history' or 'being baddies'.

I'll always engage politely, and I'll avoid insulting individuals (I won't misgender people for example), but I know that we have to keep defending ourselves & our rights. I have daughters who deserve to build on the freedoms & rights that previous generations of women have won, to fulfil their potential & have a voice that matters. I think that is progress.

Garden, people humour transwomen in particular because they see them as desperately vulnerable gay men who have had all the surgery. They fear that if they say the wrong thing the transwoman may self harm or worse.

As you say, this leads to inauthentic social interactions and to other people treading on eggshells around them. And if people are scared of accidentally causing offence or of accusations of transphobia, they will avoid trans people just in case.

Trans people would do well to build up a robust sense of themselves that doesn't rely on outside endorsement.

Miranda Yardley is an example of a transwoman who's done that. He goes by male pronouns. Transition helped his mental health but he's clear that it didn't change his sex. Miranda's identity doesn't rely on a lie so it's consistent and independent.

For many transwomen it's clear that even a slightly questioning eyebrow raise can crush them. Then they get furious and blame everyone else. But it's a natural result when your self image relies on the rest of us agreeing with your assessment.

I have told my boss that I won't.

Sign up that is.

Yes people feel sorry for them because they think they had their penis cut off. Most don't.

I once read a devastating article by a guy who panicked after being given the bluey and was being wheeled into surgery. He tried to alert the staff to his change of heart but they shushed him and went ahead. He howled when he came round and felt between his legs. Couldn't finish reading that. It was awful.

I've read that article too, Pratchet. It was grim, distressing reading.

Dreadful, and I believe he wrote it decades later. It ruined his life.

As you say, this leads to inauthentic social interactions and to other people treading on eggshells around them. And if people are scared of accidentally causing offence or of accusations of transphobia, they will avoid trans people just in case.

Leaving aside the obvious point that one's identity being entirely dependent on external validation is never going to be conducive to happiness because people have other things to think about than you, it's also unwise of trans activists to position their community as this frail and needy. Employers do not want such people and, if their own activists delineate them such as a group, the employment rates for trans people will never pick up, no matter how much anti-discrimination law is passed.

Yes, I check in with myself on this regularly. I've never threatened to rape anyone. I've never demanded that a gay man have sex with me. I've never threatened to burn anyone alive.

All I've really done is repeat the basic facts of human biology again and again and again.

So yeah, I'm on the right side.

And women have been attacked for simply having an opinion. At Speaker's Corner no less.

If you are looking at these and wondering 'who is on the right side here'?

Supporters of the accused Trans woman were calling on people to come and 'protect' the accused and so plenty of balaclava clad people with dogs came to protect Tara against...a bunch of little old ladies in anoraks.

Tara has already planned to 'fuck up some [word removed by MNHQ]' before they even left the house that night.

And when the little old ladies were on the way to the pub after the trial; the activists called the police on them; resulting in a van of police that stopped...little old ladies going to the pub.

It is a fucking farce.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.newsweek.com/transgender-women-transgender-men-sex-change-sex-reassignment-surgery-676777%3famp=1 more terrible stories

Derail sorry

NobodyToVoteForNow

Yes, I check in with myself on this regularly. I've never threatened to rape anyone. I've never demanded that a gay man have sex with me. I've never threatened to burn anyone alive. All I've really done is repeat the basic facts of human biology again and again and again. So yeah, I'm on the right side

Yes yes yes

The crux of the matter is that there are far too many 'trans' using that title as a means to a sexual end.
Their 'feeling like a woman' is their sexualised perception of female sexuality which they'd like to experience. In typical male fashion, they assume all women are secretly nymphomaniacs, and through the badge of 'trans' they'd like a backstage pass into the world of feminine sex.

Also in typical male fashion, they assume that once such a backstage pass is gained, they will be able to 'persuade' any female, including lesbians that their cock is pleasurable, and any failure to find a penis pleasurable is a failing of biological women. If only those biological women would just 'take cock' all would be fine.

There is nothing as grotesque as men doing this. It's a travesty to those with genuine dysphoria, those willing to lose their penis because they truly believe they are in the wrong body.

The most ironic thing of all is that there is no such backstage pass into female sexuality. The only pass is a personal one granted by a woman to a man into her specific innermost and intimate thoughts and feelings. They don't need to dress up for that. They certainly can't barge their way into it with high heels and stockings. And they will NEVER extract the innermost secrets of a woman whilst they are forcing their cocks into them.

Garden, I do it because I can (in terms of financial security) and precisely because so many women can't, it's like a debt to pay. Feminists have made me feel powerful, so this is payback with gratitude! It's quite enjoyable and that is a gift from feminists who know a lot more than I do.

Why didn't they just frame it as sex AND gender?

Just my own view of course, but I'm not that keen on gender at all.
I think we're human, male and female. We share most characteristics, but some tend to be more common in males, and some tend to be more common in females. There's a lot of overlap.

'Gender' just seems to want to pigeon hole a bunch of characteristics. I'd far rather we had a situation where women and men didn't feel they had to conform to a gender, or set of characteristics. It shouldn't be feminine to cry, or masculine to be competitive.

Just my ideological thinking of course!

You may say I'm a dreamer, but...

Snappitty what privilege is attached to being a woman? Please explain. Because in my mind, women have been oppressed throughout history and have only had the right to vote on an unrestricted basis for 90 years.

When men excluded women from the vote that was privilege

When women try to exclude trans women, that is privilege. It is attempting to use superior numbers = superior power to deprive a minority (trans women) of rights.

Larger numbers don't mean privilege, or women would be more privileged than men.

What "rights" do you think we want to deprive transpeople of?