Grace Petrie on London protests

[MillyTheKid]

From the folk singer and political activist's Twitter feed:

Here’s what I want to know. I’m a butch lesbian. How come NO TRANS PEOPLE EVER have:
-tried to convince me I’m trans
-tried to stop me using “lesbian”
-interrogated me about whether I will have sex with trans women
-erased me in literally any possible way

And yet, conversely, transphobic feminists have repeatedly:
-tried to stop me using queer to describe myself
-interrogated me about who I’m willing to have sex with
-told me the answer makes me “not a lesbian”
-erased my voice repeatedly in their claim to speak for lesbians

I’m not exaggerating even a tiny bit when I say that the level of harassment I have had simply for opposing TERFs is incomparably more than all the homophobia I’ve experienced in my life. So - you’ll forgive me if I find the “defending lesbians” rhetoric a bit hard to swallow

No, LGBTQIA. Your friend was attacked because a man/some men committed a violent crime and I hope were charged and prosecuted for it.

So her being a vulnerable transwoman in a male space had nothing to do with the attack? Do you really believe that?

We talk about women needing spaces to be safe, and they do. That nightclub had no 'third option' - if it did, she'd have used it. She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

As was the post I was responding to. Women face unspeakable violence. So do the transgender community. We have to take responsibility for both.

Society and in particular men have to take responsibility for male violence against male people. Feminism is centred on the liberation of women from sex based oppression. It's not all up to women.

She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

How is a woman supposed to know that? Male people are a threat to women, in general.

LGBTQAI- the problem is that for most people most of the time, self identification won't be a problem. Most people just get on with quietly living their lives, and of course trans people should have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. It's when you get the edges that the issues arise-as with most things. Sport is a very useful proxy for a lot of these issues. Let's use my ds as an example. He is a good all round sportsman at school. Not the best in the school, but knocking at the door. His times are always better than the best girl. If he identified as a girl, he would easily take most school records. Do you think this would be right?

Society and in particular men have to take responsibility for male violence against male people. Feminism is centred on the liberation of women from sex based oppression. It's not all up to women.

That's an easy way to wash your hands of it, but you'll never resolve this if you do not address the needs and rights of the transgender community. I'm not saying it's all up to women. I'm saying it's up to anyone who is fighting for equality.

A woman should have the right to choose a trusted medical professional for her smear test.

That wasn't the question. Is a woman a bigot for rejecting a trans medical professional because they are male? Or is that an outrageous attack on women's boundaries?

I'm saying it's up to anyone who is fighting for equality.

Sometimes you need to focus the fight for equality in order that certain people's rights and concerned aren't overlooked. Trans people have their campaigns. Women need ours to be focussed on women's issues.

*concerns

So her being a vulnerable transwoman in a male space had nothing to do with the attack?

I’m sure it did. Violent men respond to perceived transgression of gender norms with violence. We as feminists are fully aware of this.

Can you understand from this why many women do feel that single-sex spaces matter for their safety, and why dismissing and trivialising these concerns as bigotry is failing to address the very real fear we have about some men?

LGBTQIA

Your misogyny is breathtaking. Either that or you're petrified.

You say collaboration is the key and we can resolve this.

I give you the conflict of rights, and you can't even address it.

You don't know enough about sport? I can't stand sport. It's irrelevant. Of course you can answer the question. You don't have to understand sport.

Rapists? Only if they are a threat? How does that work? Are you implying that a rapist is not a threat to women!? Or are you saying just put them in with the women and only when they prove they're a threat, should they be removed?? How many rapes would satisfy you?

A trusted medical professional?? Again, what the hell does this mean? You ask for a woman, you get a man.

Are women allowed to specify a female? This is not a difficult question, unless you're petrified of answering it. Or your answer is misogynistic.

You can't pretend that you are interested in a collaborative resolution, when you can't take even a baby step towards one by answering questions.

It's you who won't collaborate.

Because you have already decided that collaboration can't work because

I have seen so much spiteful misgendering on here, so many unkind comments about people's appearances, so many horror stories about a minority of sexual predators, which exist in pretty much ANY marginalised group, used to conflate with the transwomen group as a whole.

You've set out your wares, right there. So don't talk to me about bloody collaboration.

As was the post I was responding to. Women face unspeakable violence. So do the transgender community. We have to take responsibility for both.

Violence from men. MEN. Not from women and certainly not from radical feminists.

Farcical.

That wasn't the question. Is a woman a bigot for rejecting a trans medical professional because they are male? Or is that an outrageous attack on women's boundaries?

If the woman does not feel comfortable with the person that is conducting her smear test, for whatever reason, no, she is not a bigot for rejecting them. I don't believe I could have been any clearer in my answer.

I believe that people should be able to make personal decisions for themselves based on their own experiences and attitudes. The only exception I'd generally make for this is people rejecting professionals due to race, as this is never anything but ignorance.

If a medical professional felt that the woman was uncomfortable, I'm sure they would say exactly the same. I speak from personal experience here. Due to my PTSD I struggle tremendously with smear tests. The last time I went, a nurse who I found to be quite abrupt and uncaring in nature attempted the smear first. It didn't work, she could see I felt uncomfortable. She went to find my GP, someone who I know well and has always put me at ease, and she came into the room and was able to successfully complete the test. I don't know if the nurse took any offence, maybe she did, but she certainly didn't let it show.

She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

Firstly she poses exactly the same threat as any other man.

Secondly, my father-in-law is no threat, I don't want to disrobe in front of him. Nor do I expect other women to.

Datun

My misogyny is breathtaking? I addressed every point in your post to the best of my ability, politely and rationally, and you accuse me of being a misogynist because I didn't answer them in the way you wanted? Is that really how it works around here?

Talk to me on an equal level! Try to understand what I'm trying to say, and I will try to understand what others are trying to tell me. But if you close down my arguments by calling me a misogynist, I have nothing more to say to you.

If a medical professional felt that the woman was uncomfortable, I'm sure they would say exactly the same.

Except they didn't. They argued the toss. And the woman was called a bigot. It was even put on her notes.

I'm so sorry that you have had a bad experience. But knowing that smear can be traumatic, I'm hoping desperately you will get this.

Do you think we are inventing these? We are not. I can assure you.

Men are routinely beating women in sport.

I'm sure your trans friends are perfectly lovely. I'm sure they're not interested in making women feel uncomfortable, beating them in sport, or calling them bigoted for refusing to be touched by them.

But there is a significant cohort who do not think that way.
Whether they are genuinely trans or not, I don't know. I doubt they have gender dysphoria, if that's the criteria.

Radical feminists have traditionally championed minorities and marginalised people. They are generally left wing, inclusive, hippy do-gooders.

Ask yourself why would great swathes of feminists have suddenly turned into raging bigots overnight?

They haven't. They are dealing with a direct attack. Your decent trans friends are far more collateral damage, they are the cause.

LGBTQIA - what I'm saying is that your post omitted the real reason why your friend was assaulted, which was an act/acts of male violence. If we can remove the individual circumstance of your friend (and thus avoid your argument-derailing of 'whataboutery'.....without minimising what happened which is clearly awful), we can look at the structural and societal context of assaults by men.

It is not women's 'job' to keep the world 'safe' from male violence, but we should definitely hang on to the means we already have to protect ourselves. Permitting biological men (and presumably your friend looked like a biological man or the female toilets would not have been barred - nightclubs go on appearance after all ) into female spaces is to risk undermining our safety, comfort and dignity.

LGBTQIA

You didn't answer them, though. You evaded them.

If your answers are fair, then answer.

Frankly, it doesn't interest me particularly. So I don't mind if you can't answer. But you have said several times why can't we collaborate?

The starting point would be for you to understand the issue, and put forward your take on it.

One of your takes - that a rapist should be allowed to go to a female prison unless they are a threat, IS breathtaking.

If you were incarcerated and couldn't escape, and you knew a rapist was being imprisoned with you, how would you feel?

60% of female prisoners have been subjected to past sexual abuse, by the way.

Imagining that a rapist, of any description, has any place in a female prison is misogyny.

It is not women's 'job' to keep the world 'safe' from male violence, but we should definitely hang on to the means we already have to protect ourselves. Permitting biological men (and presumably your friend looked like a biological man or the female toilets would not have been barred - nightclubs go on appearance after all ) into female spaces is to risk undermining our safety, comfort and dignity.

My friend looks biologically female but adopts non binary traits sometimes. That night she was rocking facial hair (as a Puerto Rican, it grows pretty quickly and it depends on her mood as to whether she shaves it off) but to all other intents and purposes she looked female. She is very tiny in stature. She has a deep voice (not really something that would be an issue if nipping into the loo quickly and not talking to anyone in there, but the men who assaulted her had heard her talking earlier in the night.) She is very, very pretty. Not that it should make any difference, but I can't imagine any woman looking at her and feeling threatened, even when she's got a five o'clock shadow.

I totally understand the need for women to feel safe. I have never, ever disputed this. My friend advocates for a third space because she does not want to make other women feel uncomfortable. This is the reality of the majority of transgender women. They want to live a life that is easy, that does not hurt other women, that is not constantly focused on their identity, but when they do express it, they don't want to be beaten and raped.

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

One of your takes - that a rapist should be allowed to go to a female prison unless they are a threat, IS breathtaking.

You misread my post, then. I said that a rapist should not be allowed anywhere that they are a threat. If they are a threat in a female prison, they should not be there.

My friend looks biologically female but adopts non binary traits sometimes.

Oh how daring. Meanwhile who gives a fuck about women's privacy and dignity.

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

You’re setting up a false dichotomy. We know that trans people get abuse from men and from patriarchal systems designed to enforce gender as the hierarchy it is. But we’re getting told that it is wrong to even debate how to balance their needs with the needs of biological women.

It’s the difference between “trans people facing domestic violence need refuges” (absolutely! They do! Will happily support trans people fighting to set up refuge spaces!) and “trans women need access to women’s refuges and if you oppose this you’re a bigot.”

Oh how daring. Meanwhile who gives a fuck about women's privacy and dignity.

I've literally told you (with her permission, I hasten to add) that she was beaten and sexually assaulted, and this is what you choose to focus on?

"I totally understand the need for women to feel safe. I have never, ever disputed this. My friend advocates for a third space because she does not want to make other women feel uncomfortable. This is the reality of the majority of transgender women. They want to live a life that is easy, that does not hurt other women, that is not constantly focused on their identity, but when they do express it, they don't want to be beaten and raped."

I get that the intentions are honourable but we have to find a way of accommodating trans women's needs without dismantling women's rights.

Agree about the pressure cooker of twitter.

Did your friend go into the men's because they were "adopting non binary traits"? I am sorry to hear that your friend was assaulted by other males. But it's not the role of women to welcome all GNC males into our spaces because they get abused by other males. As Datun says if your friend passed they would be able to use the ladies without anyone realising. Clearly they didn't.

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

Trans 'women' using facilities built, funded, run and for women IS patriarchy. Trans 'women' butting into feminism IS patriarchy. Trans 'women' telling women how to woman and that they do it better than women IS patriarchy.

If Trans 'women' were not so male in their behaviour, and they identified with us rather than as us, they would have our support.

Most gender critical women were once allies and willing to fight alongside trans people, but in one way or other were disgusted at the treatment of women by TRAs and that is why they are saying No.

Also LGBTQIA, especially given you know someone who’s directly experienced male violence for being trans, does it not seem a bit weird to you that current debate on this subject is setting up radical feminists as the bad guys? Not violent men, but radical feminists? Does that not seem a bit weird to you?