Grace Petrie on London protests

[MillyTheKid]

From the folk singer and political activist's Twitter feed:

Here’s what I want to know. I’m a butch lesbian. How come NO TRANS PEOPLE EVER have:
-tried to convince me I’m trans
-tried to stop me using “lesbian”
-interrogated me about whether I will have sex with trans women
-erased me in literally any possible way

And yet, conversely, transphobic feminists have repeatedly:
-tried to stop me using queer to describe myself
-interrogated me about who I’m willing to have sex with
-told me the answer makes me “not a lesbian”
-erased my voice repeatedly in their claim to speak for lesbians

I’m not exaggerating even a tiny bit when I say that the level of harassment I have had simply for opposing TERFs is incomparably more than all the homophobia I’ve experienced in my life. So - you’ll forgive me if I find the “defending lesbians” rhetoric a bit hard to swallow

I've literally told you (with her permission, I hasten to add) that she was beaten and sexually assaulted, and this is what you choose to focus on?

Sorry, I didn't read it properly, I reacted to that statement. That non binary people seem to pick and choose which spaces they use.

You didn't answer them, though. You evaded them.

In exactly the same way Stella Creasy answered the mother whose 11-year-old daughter had been forced to watch male masturbation in her school changing room while she was naked - peer on peer assault.

It's anti-feminist obscurantism.

LGBTQI.....I think describing the details of your friend's individual experience is to derail this aspect of the discussion. All I can do is say 'the attack was wrong' and add that generally speaking, transwomen who don't 'pass' risk making women feel unsafe and uncomfortable when they're in women-only spaces. So they shouldn't be there.

I cannot believe anyone sensible thinks rapists who identify as women should go to a women's prison 'unless they are a threat'. They are a threat because of their history. Sexual offenders are major recidivists. So of course they should never go to a women's prison.

You misread my post, then. I said that a rapist should not be allowed anywhere that they are a threat. If they are a threat in a female prison, they should not be there.

I read your post to say that a risk assessment should be done on whether they pose a threat to the women in the prison.

Which is currently what happens if they have a GRC. Hence Martin Ponting being put in a women's prison and swiftly removed again.

Which is why self ID matters in terms of prisons. It's crucial.

Anyone with a GRC gets automatic transfer. Unless they have committed the most top-level violent crime, in which case there isn't a facility in the female prison for those crimes, because women don't tend to commit them.

Prioritising the feelings of a rapist, a rapist, above the feelings and safety of women is just about as misogynistic as it comes.

If that wasn't your intention, then I understand.

It is, however, the intention of transactivists who want to change the law.

You disagreeing with that, makes you transphobic.

Frankly, LGBTQIA, the instances where women's protections can be eroded, are not that many. But they are vital.

There are not that many places that are separated by sex. Prisons, rape refugees, hospital wards, overnight accommodations are the crucial ones. With changing rooms and loos further down the list.

The problem is you have a number of men who are leveraging current protocols to not only taunt and goad women, but pressuring shops, institutions, schools and services to change their policies.

Women's choices are being removed.

One of the ways to try and halt that is to expose the motives of the people doing it.

One woman who was on a BBC panel says how she went to the loo, to be followed in by one of the trans-activists who was also on the panel. The TRA had to pass one gents and one gender neutral loo, and walk up two flights of stairs to get to the ladies.

He absolutely knew he was making her feel uncomfortable. They had just been talking about it live on television!

It's deliberate.

Women make distinctions, relentlessly on here, about men with gender dysphoria trying to navigate their life under the radar, and transactivists trying to actively damage women.

I wish people would just bear that in mind.

Did your friend go into the men's because they were "adopting non binary traits"? I am sorry to hear that your friend was assaulted by other males. But it's not the role of women to welcome all GNC males into our spaces because they get abused by other males. As Datun says if your friend passed they would be able to use the ladies without anyone realising. Clearly they didn't.

She went into the male toilets because a bartender told her, when she discreetly asked him what the policy is, that it would be better.

She isn't gender non conforming. She is a woman who occasionally adopts gender non conforming aesthetics. Just as some biological women proudly dispaly facial hair, or use make up to achieve the look, so does my friend embrace those sorts of aesthetics on occasion.

All I can do is say 'the attack was wrong' and add that generally speaking, transwomen who don't 'pass' risk making women feel unsafe and uncomfortable when they're in women-only spaces. So they shouldn't be there.

This.

Sorry to hear your friend was attacked LGBQ+. By a bloke presumably.

Women being attacked/raped/beaten has gone on for so long and, indeed, men's rights to beat and rape women have been enshrined in law for so long, and until so recently and still are in many places. It's so universal it's sort of invisible. Perhaps young people don't realise how recent, partial and fragile our rights are? They see that we have a female prime minister and think all is well?

It's easier to sympathise with a small number of troubled people (trans people) than a large number of people (women) for some reason. It seems to be human nature. We'll do anything to get a football team out of a cave using money that could have saved 10000 people from death elsewhere. For some reason it's how we are wired.

She went into the male toilets because a bartender told her, when she discreetly asked him what the policy is, that it would be better.

Yes. They were thinking of how women would feel, of women's rights to privacy and dignity. It's neither their fault nor women's fault that your male friend was assaulted in the male toilet. Should all gay men use the women's toilets too?

Also LGBTQIA, especially given you know someone who’s directly experienced male violence for being trans, does it not seem a bit weird to you that current debate on this subject is setting up radical feminists as the bad guys? Not violent men, but radical feminists? Does that not seem a bit weird to you?

Oh, absolutely. My primary aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and dismantle the rights of violent men. That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does. I appreciate there are some other topics of discussion on here, but a disproportionate amount are focused on transwomen, and that concerns me.

You don't appear to understand why this focus exists.

Yes. They were thinking of how women would feel, of women's rights to privacy and dignity. It's neither their fault nor women's fault that your male friend was assaulted in the male toilet. Should all gay men use the women's toilets too?

Of course they were. I understand that, just as my friend did. And she said the bartender was very sweet and clearly embarrassed that she'd even asked.

Gay men should use men's toilets as they identify as men. But in general, more needs to be done to make nightclub toilets a safer environment for all.

Oh agreed, this board is heavily focused on trans issues at the moment. I suspect the reasons for that are largely a) that the issue itself is bringing a lot of women to feminism, and b) this is one of the few online spaces where such debate is allowed. I’m a member of several online discussion spaces for left-leaning politics; I can discuss vaguer issues of sexism (like “cat-calling is bad!”) on any of them, but this is the only place I could have a discussion about gender identity ideology and legislative changes.

I am glad she has never had the experience that many lesbians (and especially young lesbians) have had. I am sorry she has been harassed by GC feminists. However it reads as if, if she hasn't had the experience, it doesn't happen. Kind of like a 'friend' of mine who luckily managed to figh off her attacker, and now claims that the only people who get raped are those who do not fight hard enough as its easy to avoid

‘My aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy’

I just spat my cornflakes out over my keyboard.

May I say that you’re actually doing a good job of UPHOLDING the patriarchy, LBTQ?

Though as I mentioned, it’s not working. Women are waking up.

LGBTQIA

That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does.

In the interests of moving on, is there any part of you that is beginning to understand a little more as to why, by any chance?

"Oh, absolutely. My primary aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and dismantle the rights of violent men. That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does. I appreciate there are some other topics of discussion on here, but a disproportionate amount are focused on transwomen, and that concerns me."

And it frustrates me to see the trans community and its hanger-on focussing on women.

In the interests of moving on, is there any part of you that is beginning to understand a little more as to why, by any chance?

No, not really. I genuinely can see why women are concerned about their spaces being violated. I get that, and I understand the power of fear, because I feel that too. I feel it every day.

But I choose to listen to my friends in the transgender community, and I know they are not the enemy of women or women's rights, as a whole. Can people within their community be misogynistic and predatory? Absolutely. Just as women can be misogynistic towards one another, so can transwomen.

I can understand your fear and concern, because I feel it every day as a woman and a survivor, but I don't believe the echo forum you've molded here will do any long term good, because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

No, not really. I genuinely can see why women are concerned about their spaces being violated.

Then why the disconnect? It's not all about "fear". It's about women's privacy and dignity. Women's right to consent to males in their intimate spaces. Freedom from the male gaze.

LGBTQIA I am appalled by any act of violence and your friend didn't deserve that.

Because your friend was assaulted I would gladly help them campaign for a 3rd space so they are safe. I will always generally speak out against male violence and call for society to address it, too.

But you really want my traumatised female friend to budge up and make room for them although it will traumatise and terrify her further? You can't see any issue with that? My friend was assaulted as a child, by a grown man simply because of her sex. Your friend was (I presume) a male who was attacked by another man. We can't allow any male to access female spaces because other males are violent. Where do the vulnerable women then go? Why should they swallow their significant fear and discomfort to make your friend feel better?

Gay men should use men's toilets as they identify as men.

Why have you ducked this? Why is how someone "identifies" relevant to women when it comes to male people invading their spaces? If gay men are safer in women's toilets shouldn't they be allowed to use them too?

Then why the disconnect? It's not all about "fear". It's about women's privacy and dignity. Women's right to consent to males in their intimate spaces. Freedom from the male gaze.

There's no disconnect. If anything it's the opposite; it's impossible for me to disconnect from the rights of women and the rights of the transgender community. Hence why I'm here. Having spent a few days here, I'm no more sure on either side what needs to be done. It's a very unpleasant and disconcerting feeling for me to feel so conflicted.

And I get that it's not all about fear. I'm speaking as someone with PTSD. For me, pretty much everything I do is underpinned with fear.

Absolutely. Just as women can be misogynistic towards one another, so can transwomen.

Don't try to bury the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists in "women do it too". You're sounding like an MRA.

And there's the problem; activists don't criticize violence and they don't empathise with women.

Why have you ducked this? Why is how someone "identifies" relevant to women when it comes to male people invading their spaces? If gay men are safer in women's toilets shouldn't they be allowed to use them too?

Because my friend is a woman. She is not a man. I guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable. She doesn't "invade" spaces; if she uses a female space it's because she's been given permission to do so. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for her to have to do that whenever she goes to a new place. Something I take for granted every day.

Oh and here's something you can do. Tell your male allies who join in yo bully and dismiss and abuse women to back off this issue, they are not helping anyone.