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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

544 replies

SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 10:59

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 23/07/2018 12:47

Prawnofthepatriarchy

This below is from University of Edinburgh site:
Dr Philip Cook:
Research Interests
"My recent research has focused on the moral and political status of children. I am particularly interested in understanding children's claims of justice as democratic equals. I am currently working on issues around justice in schools and education; the place of work in children's lives; and children's entitlements to political participation (including voting).

Child-Labour is a particular focus at the moment. Though this is a topic of considerable ethical importance, there is a very limited investigation of the topic in moral and political philosophy. I have begun to explore the ethical complexity of child-labour in my forthcoming chapter 'What's Wrong with Child-Labour?' in the Routledge Handbook of the Philosophy of Childhood and Children. I am keen to establish more firmly the grounds of our moral objections to child-labour, and also to develop an account of the positive value of work in children's lives. I am a member of an emerging group of academics, policy professionals, and activists who campaign against abolitionist approaches to child-labour, and who argue for a more positive approach to regulating good work as part of childhood. For further information on this group see: www.childrenandwork.net/ "

My work on child-labour formed the basis of a public performance at the 2017 Edinburgh Fringe Festival as part of the Cabaret of Dangerous Ideas. My show 'Bring Back Child-Labour!' presented my main ideas to a wide public audience, and attracted some media coverage.

Previous work on justice in education and schooling was supported by an ESRC Small Grant ‘Schools, Children, and Social Justice’.

I also have research interests in contractualism in moral and political philosophy. I am especially interested in exploring contractualist responses to problems of exclusion: how may children, people with various kinds of disabilities, and the elderly be included in the scope of contractualist justification?

I am keen to pursue political philosophy in an interdisciplinary context. I am a founding member of the SSPS Education and Society Research Group, and am currently a Co-Director of SKAPE (Centre for Science, Knowledge, and Policy).

I contribute to a variety of public and policy engagement activities. I have organised a range of events as part of the Just World Institute's 'Ethics Forum' that brought together scholars, politicians and activists to discuss topics of current public concern; I recently co-organised a conference on 'Philanthropy and Social Justice' with academics and practitioners; and am a member of the Academy of Government's 'Reference Group on Inequalities' which considers responses to social inequality in Scotland with leaders from business, campaign groups, central and local government, and the voluntary sector.

I am Editor-in-Chief of Res Publica - A Journal of Moral, Legal and Political Philosophy (together with Dr. Sune Laegaard).

Res Publica is published on behalf of the Association for Social and Political Philosophy.

wasn't there an issue with Donald Trump's education secretary support/involvement with a group advocating child labour? I have a memory of the headlines

AngryAttackKittens · 23/07/2018 12:53

the place of work in children's lives

Either this is about "sex work" or he's about to suggest we send them back down the mines.

lisamuggeridge · 23/07/2018 12:59

Wowzer. That isnt even subtle.

R0wantrees · 23/07/2018 13:05

Philip Cook, 'Bring BAck Child Labour!' sound cloud:
soundcloud.com/philip-cook-13/bring-back-child-labour

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/07/2018 13:44

I'm old enough to actually remember PIE & NAMBLA (which I see is still going). I've seen this movie before. It morphs from rights into ...

AngryAttackKittens · 23/07/2018 13:46

If we could stick to recycling awful fashion rather than public promotion of pedophilia every few decades that would be lovely.

lisamuggeridge · 23/07/2018 14:13

When someone tells you basic safeguarding is a threat to their identity, in my experience you should take that at face value. Here we definitely should. It is wholly unacceptable to screech that women are not allowed to discuss as how it presents.

RedToothBrush · 23/07/2018 14:21

Philip explains how society creates childhood through its laws. These laws aim to protect children, but they end up disempowering them. Children should be treated as equals, entitled to make their own choices about their lives. Treating children as equals might seem shocking, but abolishing childhood is the best thing we can do if we truly care about our children.

What the actual fuck?

I know that lots of people currently want to take us back the early Victorian period before the Victorians established the concept of childhood legally following a series of very shocking cases.

Interestingly, the Victorians legislated against cruelty to animals, criminals, lunatics, and THEN children. Which says much about humanity in its own right.

My son is three. I should obviously treat him as my equal and expect him to educate himself, pay his way and care for himself against all possible threats to his safety. If I leave him home alone and fuck off on holiday to Spain for a week that'd be ok. Legally this is just fine.

That makes perfect sense given he can't wipe his own arse yet.

There are political forces who are doing all they can, as other issues dominate the current chaos and there is a catastopically naive attitude that the greatest harm out there is poorly verbal and yellow journalism nods its head like a fucking Churchill dog.

LaSquirrel · 23/07/2018 22:19

If we could stick to recycling awful fashion rather than public promotion of pedophilia every few decades that would be lovely.

Aye.

R0wantrees · 24/07/2018 13:49

Janice Turner

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1021010938764431362

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo
enoughisenough12 · 24/07/2018 14:45

Saw this powerful reminder about how institutions enable and condone abuse. Interview in the Guardian with one of the young women who spoke out about her abuse at the hands of Larry Nasser:

www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/24/rachael-denhollander-larry-nassar-predators-know-where-theyre-going-to-be-safe

Predators know where they’re going to be safe, how survivors are responded to when they speak up and the message that is given from the top down as to how seriously abuse will be taken

Also this week at the Independent Inquiry into Sexual Abuse in the UK, the Church, the Prince of Wales and a host of others are defending their previous support for Bishop Peter Ball, jailed for sexual abuse / exploitation of boys In the UK but protected, housed, financed and supported by countless 'establishment' figures .

Yet some groups are actively eroding safeguarding for children and denying us all the right to establish boundaries and say no.

R0wantrees · 24/07/2018 14:54

I was just listening to the interview with George Carey on the radio.

Background discussion and links to articles etc:
www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/lord-carey-permitted-to-resume-public-ministry/

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2018 17:41

A 'this never happens' twitter thread

twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1021813202064220160

It sounds remarkably similiar in nature to Rochdale, though facilitated via the internet.

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2018 17:44

twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1022107967490011137
also see this part of the conversation as it doesn't flow on naturally.

KittyPerry77 · 25/07/2018 17:48

How very cynical of you AngryAttackKittens. Though I don't know what other "work" could criminalize them:
Working children should not be harmed or exploited through any interventions intended for their benefit. They should not be criminalized on account of their work. (from www.childrenandwork.net/members/). Still not convinced it's not just a piece of wanky "art" though as the website is very light

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 25/07/2018 17:49

I've just posted a thread about those tweets, red. I'm absolutely appalled & speechless at this. This is what happens when safeguarding is dismantled. These are children abused already, traumatised, vulnerable as a result & being groomed & abused further because social workers are being told not to challenge the gender aspect of the exploitation because of "transphobia".

This is outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.

R0wantrees · 25/07/2018 22:58

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317113-Sex-offenders-petition-for-their-names-to-be-removed-from-SOR

OP Melanippe writes:

"Not sure if this will get many replies, but posting for information anyway.

A change in the law has allowed men to petition to have themselves removed from the SOR and it seems that a fair few men have been able to do just that.

Nationally, in the last 6 years over a thousand offenders whose offences were so serious they went to jail for at least 30 months succeeded in coming off the register

www.itv.com/news/granada/2018-07-25/abusers-removed-from-sex-offenders-register/ "

Coyoacan · 25/07/2018 23:23

I'm a bit gobsmacked by Philip Cook being a professor. Is this the level of academics nowadays? Certainly sounds highly suspect.

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2018 08:03

Buzzfeed investigation:

www.buzzfeed.com/richholmes/care-price?utm_term=.hdmG7jLMWK#.oynLlAZO3a
Danger And Despair Inside Cambian Group, Britain's Largest Private Child Care Home Provider
Big rewards for investors and executives, “chaos” and “unhygienic” conditions for children.

But while Cambian has reaped the benefits of its corporate recovery, young people in its care have endured decrepit conditions and even suffered violent assaults, a BuzzFeed News investigation has found. Documents and interviews show vulnerable kids forced to share close quarters with dangerous peers, rooms marred by vomit spatter and broken furniture, and homes spiralling out of control under the watch of poorly trained staff.

And

A BuzzFeed News investigation has found severe failings across Britain’s children’s care sector, which has become dominated by for-profit companies. Private providers charge taxpayers millions, yet their facilities are rated subpar more often than homes run by nonprofits or local governments, according to a BuzzFeed News analysis of the latest available regulator data.

And

In one home a 10- or 11-year-old girl was sent to live with “16-year-old lads” who were “all going out, smoking, doing drugs”, said Daniel Huszar, a former “team leader” at Cambian homes in Greater Manchester. “That to me was like, no, you don’t put a little girl through that.”

And

In another home, a 10-year-old autistic boy was sent to live with two teens known to bully people, who then abused him, according to Samaira Azim, a staff member at the home.

And

When Azim raised concerns, managers became “furious” with her, telling her it was “none of your business”, she told BuzzFeed News. Inside the home, the two older children quickly began intimidating and bullying the younger boy, Azim said. In retaliation, the boy started assaulting staff and making allegations against them when they restrained him.

“They could have avoided that. They could have put these two kids somewhere else,” Azim told BuzzFeed News. “But all they were interested in was filling beds.”

And

At another home in Doncaster, a teenage boy started bringing in knives and other weapons. Staff confiscated what they could but weren’t able to keep up, a former employee told BuzzFeed News. The employee said she pleaded with management to remove the child from the home before he hurt someone, but the child remained.

One day the boy attacked one of the others in the home with a baseball bat, said the former employee, who declined to be named in fear of retribution from Cambian directors. The victim survived the attack but was now terrified to be in the home. The former employee said she reported the incident up to Cambian management, expecting that the violent boy would be removed before he could hurt his peer again.

Cambian did nothing, the employee said. The boy remained in the same house.

Cambian told BuzzFeed News that the assault did happen, but “no baseball bat was used”. The two boys “settled their difference”, Cambian said, and remained in the home together until, nearly a year later, they both left.

And

Ricky Watson told BuzzFeed News he was “pressured” by his manager into working 32 consecutive hours at an understaffed home in Bedfordshire. Staff shortages grew from the director’s reluctance to pay contract workers in order to fill gaps at the homes, depending instead on overworked full-time staff, Watson said. “I knew people who did a few days in a row without going home,” he said. “You couldn’t go until they got somebody to replace you.”

And

Poor staff training created other dangerous problems elsewhere. At another home, in Halton, Cheshire, children were abusing drugs. Yet the staff had not been given any recent relevant training, an inspection report found, meaning they “had limited knowledge on this subject”. What’s more, staff were not given “realistic strategies to prevent potential harm”. Inspectors at a home in Warwickshire found a lack of training in radicalisation and extremism of children, which left staff “without the knowledge to safeguard young people”, the inspector wrote.

The whole article is utterly appalling.

And there's moves to lessen safeguarding?!

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2018 08:06

Bbc appealling the cliff richard ruling on points of law.

Suspect they will lose...

R0wantrees · 26/07/2018 12:01

Current threads:
tweet by Stephanie Davies (Transgender Trend founder)
mobile.twitter.com/cwknews/status/1022394312556990465

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317880-Parents-who-wont-affirm-8-yr-old-gender-change-being-referred-to-social-services

Separate discussion following OP comment:
(extract)
"My daughter presents with ROGD. Her school is going forward with affirming this by way of calling her by her boys name and male pronouns. That's all so far. This despite our repeated requests to step back and watch and wait - to go at our pace as a family (basically back off). She has had a lot of emotional upheaval in her short life and has always found it hard to fit in. We have found a wonderful counsellor and that's all we're prepared to do at present" (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317247-daughter-with-rogd-issues-with-school

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo
Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo
Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo
R0wantrees · 26/07/2018 12:28

Comment by 'Social Work Tutor'
www.facebook.com/socialworktutor/posts/875496885979946

(extract)
"Yesterday the government told us that a million public sector workers are to receive their biggest pay rise in 10 years.

Teachers, nurses, doctors, dentists, soldiers and prison officers are all getting a pay rise.

But not social workers.

Once again we’ve been forgotten about and all the good work we do has failed to be acknowledged.

And where is the outcry from our unions?

Where is the campaigning from our associations?

Where is the championing of our cause by our professional leaders?

Yeah... you guessed it... there’s nothing being said at all.

Same old story for social workers as we’re pushed to the bottom of the pile and totally forgotten about.

Instead of a pay rise we’re being told that we’re not working hard enough, that we’re to blame for the broken system and that we need more testing to make us better.

Instead of a pay rise we’re getting the news that more of us are facing violence and threats for simply doing our jobs.

Instead of a pay rise we’re watching our teams fall apart as half of our colleagues are predicted to quit the profession for good in the next 18 months." (continues)

lisamuggeridge · 26/07/2018 12:55

narcissistic abusers wanting access to kids and wanting kids as extensions of their own identity. We are supposed to have systems which prevent this.

lisamuggeridge · 26/07/2018 12:58

Trans activists have been reduced to objects by the media and politics organisations pushing this. The problem with reducing someone to an object is you cant hear them. While we are having the conversation about these systems I rather suspect some of the most prominent supporters of this will be beginning to actually hear what these activists have been saying and realising their scalps are attached. This is a fucking mess. This is an actual humonguous mess.