Lesbians react to London Pride

[garam]

Some very passionate responses from the lesbian community, since the anti-trans protests.

When Jennifer James pushed to sue the labour party, the result was the labour party clarified it's position as self-id for AWS

This has a similar ring to it, as the anti-trans protesters tried to co-opt the lesbian community, there has been a vocal backlash and clarification of support for trans people.

There's a hashtag to check out... twitter.com/hashtag/LWithTheT?src=hash

Yes, I got that you were comparing to males but overall and indeed your last sentence in your reply confirms it, the very vocal and frankly bullying part of the trans community has or does seem very keen to play the "we've been treated diabolically in the past" and some perhaps believe they still are and that because of this history they should be treated with kid gloves and their needs and perceived rights should be put above others who in the case of male homosexuals and bi sexuals have the same awful history of persecution and indeed their needs put over females born who have a far far worse history. Sympathise as I do with the history of Trans people, you will never know the denigration, the hate, the subjugation that female born have had to endure in the past and in some countries still do. You will never as a group be viewed as property to be done with as wished by their masters.

So yes, you were comparing your community to straight males. But the air has alwaysnbeen one of we have suffered the same as you if not worse. No. No you have not.

In an ideal world, every marginalized group would look out for every other marginalized group, yes.

So when is it the turn of women, particularly lesbian and bisexual women?

Question, as I'm new here: is it common practice to take people's quotes out of context in order to attribute a belief to them that they never expressed?

Very, very common.

Very, very common.

Yes you do it not infrequently.

You have done the same thing yourself a tad, though. When you were talking about biological definitions of ‘woman’, you were arguing against a straw man idea of what gender critical feminists believe. It’s clear you have been told somewhere that we think all women should be somehow reduced to our reproductive systems as they’re the most important things about us (more so than, say, our characters). That’s really not what radical feminists believe.

I don't think I said this, but I can understand how points might get misconstrued in a fast moving debate. I believe what I said is that if a feminist believes that biology is the only determining factor for being a woman, that is absolute fine, and if another feminist believes that it is society that determines or influences an identification with being a woman, that is also fine.

As to the rest, nobody pointed me here. I am a bisexual cis woman who has heard mutterings about many anti transactivists congregating on MN, and after I witnessed the way people in the trans community were made to feel at Pride on Saturday, I wanted to get a better understanding of the beliefs they hold. It's a shame to me that my intentions have been questioned, and that I've been insulted at least once, when I've tried to remain polite to all.

So yes, you were comparing your community to straight males. But the air has alwaysnbeen one of we have suffered the same as you if not worse. No. No you have not.

I am a bisexual cis woman. Please don't erase me just because I hold different beliefs to you.

So when is it the turn of women, particularly lesbian and bisexual women?

Lots of transgender people are supporting their LGBTQIA sisters, I promise.

So are you going to start targeting male dominated groups and insisting they have sex with people who have a penis? And give them grief when they say no? Will you target homosexual people with a penis and insist they have sex with a homosexual man who does not have a penis? Will Mr Fry himself have sex with a person who does not have a penis but feels they are a homosexual man? Or will you stick to forums like this one?

Very, very common

Pot, kettle fucking black

I believe what I said is that if a feminist believes that biology is the only determining factor for being a woman, that is absolute fine

I’m talking about your later post re: people born with the potential to gestate, where you said that you left rather people were described in terms of their character rather than their biological abilities.

(FYI I also used to hold the position that some women were women because they were born female, and others could also be classified as women because they felt that they had an inner sense of gender identity. I got roundly told off for that view as ‘transphobic’ elsewhere.)

mutterings about many anti transactivists congregating on MN

Where? Twitter? Mumsnet gets constantly criticised and scorned - it used to be “silly wittering mummies”, now it’s “silly wittering mummies who are apparently fascists”. Predominantly male forums who say much harsher things about trans people (Pistonheads, eg) don’t get anywhere near the same level of scorn and scrutiny. I’d share my view as to why this is, but alas it comes back to women being oppressed as a sex class again, so...

*Lots of transgender people are supporting their LGBTQIA sisters, I promise.

So why do you think Lesbian women (who will no face doxxing and attack) put their neck on the line to make a stand in the most public of way? You don’t lay in the ground in front of 30,000 people on a parade, 1 million in the crowd and the national press unless you are protesting a dire situation.

The lack of support reeks of homophobia and supports entitlement to female bodies by anyone who demands it.

So are you going to start targeting male dominated groups and insisting they have sex with people who have a penis? And give them grief when they say no? Will you target homosexual people with a penis and insist they have sex with a homosexual man who does not have a penis? Will Mr Fry himself have sex with a person who does not have a penis but feels they are a homosexual man? Or will you stick to forums like this one?

If you're addressing me, I've said repeatedly that I don't believe any woman should be made to have sex, or made to feel she should have sex, with someone she has no wish to have sex with. I totally denounce anybody in the LGBTQIA community that is pushing an agenda that takes control away from women to choose their sexual and romantic partners. But I will also denounce anyone who says that a lesbian who has sex with a non-cis gendered woman is not a true lesbian.

So says you.

Ok I'm trans female but gay.

Hmm you may not believe that. Best I register as someone else and come back. Not hard to do. Then I can lay claim to all sorts of things.

But to stay on track. Did you know that many women born with female bits were against women getting the vote, were all for women being viewed as property and that it was most certainly a husbands right to demand sex and force wifey to have sex? Tis true. The fact that women born female held this view and supported these actions does not make it any less reprehensible that this occurred and that stopping these practices was wrong.

The fact you are a female born women - cis by the way is one of those words banned, does not make your support of the apparent a Gender of the Trans community legitimate in the same way the support of the women who believed and in some parts of the world still do believe, that female born women should be viewed as property and sex toys of men.

Oh ffs wit ur special speak lgtbia

Cis non gendered. Wat ever

If u don’t like women just be up front and say ffs

Lots of transgender people are supporting their LGBTQIA sisters, I promise.

The outpouring of hatred toward 8 Lesbians who said no at Pride to point out the misogyny and homophobia in the LGBT community was just a minority of the community? Pull the other one. It has bells on.

Glitch in your computer there, vermillionR? You already posted that once.

I’m talking about your later post re: people born with the potential to gestate, where you said that you left rather people were described in terms of their character rather than their biological abilities.

Yes, that's my preference. But I rather felt that my original position was still clear - that women are free to define themselves according to their own beliefs, and nobody else's.

Where? Twitter? Mumsnet gets constantly criticised and scorned - it used to be “silly wittering mummies”, now it’s “silly wittering mummies who are apparently fascists”. Predominantly male forums who say much harsher things about trans people (Pistonheads, eg) don’t get anywhere near the same level of scorn and scrutiny. I’d share my view as to why this is, but alas it comes back to women being oppressed as a sex class again, so...

Oh, don't get me started on the dismissal of women's interests as frippery. I get as angry about that as anyone. But when I am routinely seeing people in the trans community unable to move on from the old dangerous stereotypes that prevail, that being transgender is being associated with being a sexual predator, something to be feared and maligned, spoken by women calling themselves feminists, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how that movement is growing, and as a woman it is in my right to disagree with you and explain why.

Oi oi vermillion last u posted that comment u was deleted.

A journalist for a right wing publication has debunked it on Twitter? Well. I stand corrected. Can you direct me to some confirmed facts, please?

Oh yes because everyone I disagree with is Hitler and must always be factually incorrect. Because of my righteous sword of truth and justice.

Firstly, every transphobe is also a lesbophobe, without exception, and a misogynist, again without exception.

18% and dropping like a stone after the latest round of beatings and terrorizing of women at Pride parades.

Christ there are many different ways of forcing people to do something against their wills other than by force and this has been pointed out to you umpteen bloody times!

Force as in heckle, berate, publicly deride, humiliate, ostriches etc etc if someone should dare to turn someone down. It is likely that someone who feels marginalised like say a homosexual, but more specifically a female born homosexual, may feel that although they are told they can say no, they actually can't if they don't wish to be subjected to the kind of backlash that female born women who do not want their identity hijacked currently are. Stop being obtuse!!