Lesbians react to London Pride

[garam]

Some very passionate responses from the lesbian community, since the anti-trans protests.

When Jennifer James pushed to sue the labour party, the result was the labour party clarified it's position as self-id for AWS

This has a similar ring to it, as the anti-trans protesters tried to co-opt the lesbian community, there has been a vocal backlash and clarification of support for trans people.

There's a hashtag to check out... twitter.com/hashtag/LWithTheT?src=hash

Okay, so what do you mean by ‘identifying as a woman’? If it’s something like ‘you use the term ‘woman’ to describe yourself’, then yes I do - but as I’ve explained, that is only and entirely because of my biology. By your definition, it would be incorrect of me to define myself as a woman on those grounds. So what else is it that I’m doing/being/thinking that would make me a woman, over and above that biology?

You are perfectly allowed to define yourself by the ability to gestate, and that alone. I identify as a woman because of other more societal based reasons. I don't think either of these things are wrong.

Its like watching a car crash in slomo.

You do know transvestites are now included under the transgender definition?

So are transmen - and they do not class themselves as women.

Being defined as transgender is not the same as being a transwoman as there are many variations under the transgender branch.

Thank you for the lesson.

A transvestite is someone who dresses as the opposite gender. Obviously, a male transvestite isn't a lesbian and it is wrong if that person calls himself such.

Um, according to Stonewall, who have refused to condemn the persecution of lesbians (or, in fact define them) a transvestite is absolutely a transwoman. As is a cross dresser. Just as much a transwoman as anyone else who says they are. Officially. It's on their website.

A transwoman who has followed the necessary process to legally be recognised as a woman, and has legally been recognised as such, however, is perfectly entitled to call themselves a lesbian

Okay, you realise you are talking about less than 1% of the trans community, here?

Fewer than 1% of transwomen have a gender recognition certificate. I.e. are legally female.

Furthermore, almost all of those who go through the legal process, are homosexual transsexuals. They do not refer to themselves as lesbians. Because they're not interested in sex with women.

Are you beginning to see the problem here?

Women, feminists, lesbians, did not have the slightest problem with transsexuals sharing our space.

It was based on a courtesy system, which everyone was happy with.

Until transsexual changed to transgender, and now includes transvestites, cross dressers, and AGP individuals.

85% of TW retain their penis and the cohort above are largely attracted to women. Hence lesbian.

They are targeting lesbians. Who don't do penis.

You wanting to be inclusive, is not really what is happening here.

Okay, so you don’t think me having a definition of ‘woman’ that is entirely biological is inherently bigoted or hateful? That’s cool then

I do think it is useful to have a word to describe the reproductive sex class with the potential to gestate and birth young, because part of class analysis requires us to be able to name the class in question. If we can’t identify ourselves as a class, we can’t connect together the experiences we face as a class, and we can’t do much to combat them. But I’m aware that class-based analysis is less popular than analysis based around individuals as individuals these days.

However, you can probably see that some women would agree with this (even if you don’t), and that they’re probably not just having this kind of feminist analysis to be mean to trans people?

Can you just identify as a person born with the potential to gestate?

Cos I reckon the TRAs would very quickly see that trans exclusionary.

Cos obviously it's male exclusionary.

Baby you asked if lesbians should be able to set up penis excluding Scottish country dancing clubs?

According to the Equality Act this club should be open to straight women too, unless there is a specific justifiable reason to make it just for lesbians. It should also be open to trans women who identify as lesbian.

However, in practice nobody is going to stop them setting up a trans exclusionary Scottish dancing club if they really want to.

I'm sure the organisers of 'Get the L out' managed to round up a few penis excluding lesbians without much trouble.

A transwoman who has followed the necessary process to legally be recognised as a woman, and has legally been recognised as such, however, is perfectly entitled to call themselves a lesbian.

That applies to the cross dressing transvestite equally. They are protected under the EA as much as any other trans person. So yes they are by your logic entitled to call themselves lesbians too.

(I do not say any of this as some kind of ‘gotcha’ btw, LGBTQIA. I think gender critical views are horrifically misrepresented, and that this misrepresentation contributes towards a lot of polarisation and yelling that all of us could do without. This kind of debate needs more light and less heat.)

So are transmen - and they do not class themselves as women.

What's that got to do with anything?

I identify as a woman because of other more societal based reasons.

Like what? Just give me, say, the top five. No, three.

Oh ok, just one.

unless there is a specific justifiable reason to make it just for lesbians. It should also be open to trans women who identify as lesbian.

Ok well maybe some lesbians feel they could make a case, given that they feel their spaces have been overtaken by males, their identity erased and threats made towards them when they've raised this (see tweets up thread for evidence).

If this case was made by some lesbians to seek a space (virtual or otherwise) without biological males, what would you think?

You are perfectly allowed to define yourself by the ability to gestate, and that alone.

But the term woman also includes the sex who can produce sperm, right?

So what's the point?

People born with the biology to potentially gestate young. No more, no less.

Female is much shorter

So, LGBQTIA women and females can be both from the egg producing class and the sperm producing class.

The only way of identifying the actual egg producing class would be to call them the egg producers/ gestators etc?

Do you really not see why women have an issue with this?

Like what? Just give me, say, the top five. No, three.

I'd rather not, if that's okay, as that would be giving personal information away about myself that I'm not comfortable with. Hopefully you can understand why some women may wish to prefer to identify as such based on societal reasons rather than biological.

Female is much shorter

Yup. Or "women".

If this case was made by some lesbians to seek a space (virtual or otherwise) without biological males, what would you think?

I would think they wouldn't need to because in practice 99.9% of lesbian clubs do not have any trans women in them.

To be fair I don't see any reason why lesbians couldn't set up a lesbian dating site that excluded trans women. In my days of online dating I never came across a single trans woman but there's no reason why a dating site couldn't be specifically set up just for biological females.

There's no reason I know of this couldn't be set up?

A transwoman who has followed the necessary process to legally be recognised as a woman, and has legally been recognised as such, however, is perfectly entitled to call themselves a lesbian.

So, a maximum of 4910 trans women are able to call themselves lesbians? Good to know.

Also ‘identifying’ is such a vague and woolly concept, it doesn’t really help shed much light either.

So (for the benefit of all those lurkers waiting to pounce on screenshots of the mean hateful women!): there are tons of things about me that make me me, the individual person that is 53rd. But the only thing that makes me a woman is my biology.

Same with, e.g., having a disability. I don’t define myself as a person by my physical disability alone; it is my physical body which makes me disabled, not any assortment of my personality and hobbies and sense of humour or anything else.

Yes Rufus but LGBQTIA thinks some females have a penis, so in their world that would not work.

We are back to laurie penny's 'is there a word for people with female biology?' tweet aren't we??
Except Laurie Penny was at least still giving us female (I think).

LGBTQIA wants even 'female' for the people with cocks, and to leave us with just gestators.

The only way of identifying the actual egg producing class would be to call them the egg producers/ gestators etc?

Not at all. Not ever biologically born female grows up able to gestate. I'd prefer if humans were referred to by the content of their character rather than their biological abilities or lack thereof.

How very egalitarian of you. Did you think that up by yourself?

It's like they view "bisexual" as a slur, you know like when people deny things are mental health problems, not because they are not, but because they view "mental health problems" as a value judgement and a negative thing.

Also I think it's considered by many a transphobic term as it acknowledges biological sex rather than lesbian/gay which have been coopted to be based on gender identity, and the catchall "queer".