Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

[QuarksandLeptons]

Such fantastic news and real progress. The leader of the opposition has come out in favour of the Nordic model.

twitter.com/sarahchampionmp/status/1015603574829658112?s=21

This is real progress. Sarah Champion and Jess Phillips must have been instrumental in explaining why this model is needed to Jeremy Corbyn who had previously voiced support for full decriminalisation. Full decriminalisation legally favours the corporate prostitution industry (pimps and buyers) over the safety and dignity of the women who end up in prostitution.

The Nordic model is the name for a legal approach to prostitution where the woman (or man) selling themselves for sex is decriminalised and is not prosecuted. Support services are provided for people leaving prostitution. Pimps, brothel owners and buyers who make money out of or buy women for sex are criminalised.

This model is in use in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, and Ireland. Rates of trafficking drop when the model is implemented as it reduces the demand for buying women for sex.

More info here:
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

I can't say there are 'loads', there's no official figure for this - which also means you can't say that they don't report.

Why does this type of argument have such a whiff of Incels Debate Club about it? It certainly doesn't read as a prostitute talking about something as serious as sex trafficking.

Gawd, I see the klaxon has gone off at p**ternet central, and the fuckers are swarming all over this thread like fucking cockroaches.

For me it's quite simple. Sweden, Germany - socially and culturally similar countries. Sweden introduces the eponymously named Nordic model, trafficking goes down. Women still can be prostitutes - they're not the ones being criminalised - but as soon as the creepy fuckers who want to pay to fuck unwilling women step out of line, those creepy fuckers can be arrested. Germany goes down the complete decrim route - mega brothels, drive-by booths on motorway services, trafficking rockets , women are on their knees in the gutter giving blow jobs for less than the price of a big mac.

It really isn't that complicated. Legalised prostitution fucks over women - all women. The ones who are trafficked unwillingly. The ones who are groomed into it as teenagers out of financial desperation. The ones who aren't actually prostitutes themselves but have to live in a society where men think it's okay to buy women. If a tiny number of happy hookers have to get jobs stacking shelves in Sainsburys in order to protect the rest of us, well, boo hoo, cry me a river.

Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well.

Nah. I've heard enough from them to last me a lifetime.

Dixie and Fermats - I'm a fairly regular poster on MN. Feel free to check my post history if you have doubts about me.

Sweden introduces the eponymously named Nordic model, trafficking goes down

• Wrong. Quite a few statistics show that trafficking actually increased in Sweden. Please do some reading before you talk nonsense.

Germany goes down the complete decrim route

• Wrong. Germany's law is legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation led to the super-brothels and low pay rates. No one supports that model in the UK.

I'm happy to sit here and debate the ins and outs of the various models, their impacts, and provide links to supporting evidence. But when people come away with regurgitated nonsense and clearly haven't done any proper reading on the subject I have to give it the face.

Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well.

No. That's the kind of no that is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation. No. That no.

Another one here who has no desire to hear what lies and deceits misogynistic men come out with to justify their misogyny. They can fuck off to the far side of fuck.

Or more succinctly, as Lang says, no.

It really isn't that complicated. Legalised prostitution fucks over women - all women. The ones who are trafficked unwillingly. The ones who are groomed into it as teenagers out of financial desperation. The ones who aren't actually prostitutes themselves but have to live in a society where men think it's okay to buy women.

This.

Non, nein, nyet, etc.

I'm honestly not sure whether the Nordic model is a good idea or not but I'm fairly certain that the issue is, in fact, "complicated". Also sure that actual sex workers expressing their opinions shouldn't be dismissed as "happy hookers" or "the Incels Debate Club" and have their arguments completely shut down. What happened to MN being about robust, intelligent debate?

Love that everyone is giving sarky one-liners in response to "Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well." and completely ignoring everything else I've said.

If you don't want to listen to punters and sex workers then you are being wilfully ignorant of how our industry operates, the ways to make the industry safer, and the reasons we're involved in it.
Thus you can only ever put forward your own prejudice in place of fact and reasoned, informed debate.

I expect more from the feminists here and I'm honestly deeply disappointed.

I can recommend this as an account of life in a country with full decrim, notsolittlegrebe

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

If we seem short with other posters, this is because we've had many, many threads about this in the past, and a handful of the same posters show up on every single one. There's one guy n particular who's on this thread who I think has mentioned in the past that he keeps a spreadsheet (a fucking spreadsheet) of every single thing posters on here who are exited prostitutes who campaign for the Nordic model have ever said, so he can cross-reference their posts and try to catch them out on minor inconsistencies.

There really are some complete creeps, and they all come out of the woodwork. (There are also some women who say they're happy in prostitution - but I take a "first do no harm" approach - if they have to find an alternative livelihood so that women who don't want to be forced into prostitution are protected, then so be it.)

The mental image of the creepy little gnome hunched over his spreadsheet is quite something.

Aren’t there other positive aspects to the Nordic model as well?

If prostitutes are not at risk of being criminalised then won’t they feel more confident about contacting police about rape and assault or concerns about certain men?

If you don't want to listen to punters and sex workers then you are being wilfully ignorant of how our industry operates

How do you know this? How do you know what other anonymous users on an internet message board know? Some of us here may have history of working in the industry or have friends and relatives with such. Some of us may have worked or volunteered in women's orgs running exit programmes (I am one such, for example).

It's not your way or we must be ignorant.

I'll say again: no, I do not want to hear from punters.

NO.

I take a "first do no harm" approach - if they have to find an alternative livelihood so that women who don't want to be forced into prostitution are protected, then so be it.

Great, so consenting women like me leave the sex industry and the non-violent clients leave the sex industry leaving the vulnerable women (who may not be able to get any other kind of work) and the violent criminals to have a great big party where no-one can report the abuse happening because they're scared.
FFS, where is critical thinking on this issue?

And again, you are using Germany as an example. Germany legalised prostitution. Decriminalisation is a different model entirely.
Look up New Zealand if you want a relevant example.

Jesus fucking Christ.

That is the best bit of news from Labour I have heard in a long time.

Countries that have decriminalised prostitution are seeing appalling increases in abuse, trafficking, drugs and related crime.

Germany in particular. There are a number of reports from the Police and others. Decriminalisation has had terrible consequences for women.

The mental image of the creepy little gnome hunched over his spreadsheet is quite something.

Quite.

That is the best bit of news from Labour I have heard in a long time.

Agree. There is hope for them yet. Now just to peak Jezza.

A lot if the evidence that prostitution is good for some women seems to come from studies about "sex workers" as a whole not prostitutes.

I'm sure that people working on webcams and phone sex lines feel differently about their work than people earning money by having physical sex with others.

Too many studies that show that "sex work" can be positive are very very cagey about how the figure breakdown.

Id like to see a study about the views and experiences of people having sex for money rather than more widely defined "sex workers".

Thanks Fermats, I'll read that.

N.b. a quick Google does suggest that Germany has legalised, rather than decriminalised, sex work.

Trafficked women and children aren’t likely to respond to surveys.

This.

Some of us may have worked or volunteered in women's orgs running exit programmes (I am one such, for example).

If that's the case then you've only met women who want to leave the sex industry. The majority of us who work indoors and are happy with what we do are very rarely taken into account because we don't come into contact with charities running exit programmes.
The only organisations representing us are charities who help us stay safe while we're working (such as National Ugly Mugs) and groups we've had to set up ourselves.

We are a very diverse group and the issue is extremely complex. Shutting out the opinions of people who don't fit the narrative you've constructed in your head is wilful ignorance.

When you say 'No' you will not listen. I'm seeing you sticking your fingers in your ears.
The exact same way TRAs do when their preconceived ideas are challenged.

Actually the number of women choosing prostitution as a salary supplement or a way to support themselves or their families is in the increase.

Those statistics you are reading about trafficking being on the down is a load of bullcrap but what do we know. These statistics are made up to make an untenable option look viable to the so called do gooders who could not give a proverbial fuck about those it affects.

And yet we have bullies dictating to us grown women how we should live our lives because to them it is not acceptable.

If you are going to fight trafficking fight it the right way do not use freewill sex workers as your targets. You should be ashamed of yourselves and you say you fight for womens rights, where is a womens right to choose to do with her body what she wants too? Just because you find it morally inexcusable.

This is why I am raising my daughter to be a strong woman who will support women no matter what their choices and not to turn into the socalled bullies who like to tag themselves as feminists.

As for Jeremy Corbyn he will support whatever he assumes will get him the votes he needs so please do not feel he is doing it out of the kindness of his heart. If the government and the so called abolitionists wanted to abolish trafficking whether it is sexual or exploitive they would and they could but yet again it is held to ransom for their own selfish needs.

SHAME ON YOU!

N.b. a quick Google does suggest that Germany has legalised, rather than decriminalised, sex work.

@notsolittlegrebe Yet, weirdly, people are still using Germany as an example of failed decriminalisation even though it's an entirely different model to legalisation.
They're also strangely resistant to looking at any reports from New Zealand, where decriminalisation has been a success.