Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

[QuarksandLeptons]

Such fantastic news and real progress. The leader of the opposition has come out in favour of the Nordic model.

twitter.com/sarahchampionmp/status/1015603574829658112?s=21

This is real progress. Sarah Champion and Jess Phillips must have been instrumental in explaining why this model is needed to Jeremy Corbyn who had previously voiced support for full decriminalisation. Full decriminalisation legally favours the corporate prostitution industry (pimps and buyers) over the safety and dignity of the women who end up in prostitution.

The Nordic model is the name for a legal approach to prostitution where the woman (or man) selling themselves for sex is decriminalised and is not prosecuted. Support services are provided for people leaving prostitution. Pimps, brothel owners and buyers who make money out of or buy women for sex are criminalised.

This model is in use in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, and Ireland. Rates of trafficking drop when the model is implemented as it reduces the demand for buying women for sex.

More info here:
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Even when there's a willing seller and a willing buyer, perhaps not everything should be for sale.

Exploitation and human dignity have to come into it somewhere. Some people draw the line at zero hours contracts as being too exploitative . Some people draw the line at selling organs. It's okay to draw the line at selling some types of sexual services.

That doesn't get us any closer to a system that's safe for women and girls.

The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

But surely you should at least consult the people those laws are going to affect? Especially if it puts them in significant danger?

Isn't that the argument for consulting women before any changes to the law regarding self-ID? That women should be listened to because it negatively impacts them?
That we don't throw the rights and safety of one group under the bus to give another group what they want?

As I said before, the hypocrisy here would be funny if the issues weren't so serious.

But surely you should at least consult the people those laws are going to affect
They have been
Especially if it puts them in significant danger
This is hyperbole.

But surely you should at least consult the people those laws are going to affect? Especially if it puts them in significant danger?

What about the communities living in a ‘decriminalised’ zone? Do they get a say?

Absolutely consult... most consultations are not considered reliable if they are conducted by interested lobby groups though.

Also consultation doesnt mean following exactly what an interested group want to happen.

It also requires careful analysis of the construction of the consultation.

And yes, agree re the hyperbole accusation.

The claim that increased reporting in both Nordic model and full decriminalisation = two different things by the same organisation shows this is ideological.

Increased reporting means increased reporting and needs further investigation. Reporting of violence and assault on sex workers only is only a very small piece of the picture anyway.

I read the Home Office Committee report on prostitution that Brazenhussy linked. I think it does a good job of outlining the complexities of the various positions. It's rather long, but worth the read.

However, I still think none of the models offer a 'solution' to the 'problem'. Like many feminists, I think that prostitution is a form of violence against women. I don't think it's a free choice, and I don't think that consensual sex between adults should always be free from state interference. So I'm in the same camp as most abolitionists.

Nevertheless, I think the solution is to tackle poverty and sex inequality. I'm very pessimistic about the prospect that any model of prostitution policy will have the benefits that are claimed for it.

I think decriminalisation is the 'least worst' approach. But it would need to be accompanied by broader social change that alleviates women's poverty and addresses the ubiquitous sexualisation of women by men.

Thanks for all the links and explanations.

It is not possible to have decriminalisation and address the objectification of women as sexual objects IMO.

I agree that poverty, low wages and inequality need to be addressed (the reasons women choose sex work and find it hard to leave when they want) alongside addressing criminality. The point of the Nordic model is to a. Work to reduce demand and b. Shift the stigma the purchaser.

If somewhere has the Nordic model but no purchasers are actually prosecuted then what they actually have is decriminalisation in effect isn’t it?

Ah, well IMO it's not possible to stigmatise the purchaser without continuing to stigmatise the seller. I'm also deeply pessimistic that the existence of laws against buying sex will actually protect vulnerable women who are stigmatised by prostitution.

Until Corbyn comes out in favour of women = adult human female and says what he’s going to do to increase sex based protections and safeguarding of children I’m staying firmly in the ‘Corbyn can go fuck himself’ camp.

I do support the Nordic model.

Best news I've heard all year. Maybe longer.

This affects all women, not just ones who are currently selling sex.

All laws should be made in consultation with the electorate though.

Whatever legal approach taken cannot do away with the stigma though can it? The stigma comes from cultural misogyny.

All it can do is help reduce it. Criminal law cannot possibly undo the harm done to all women and the most vulnerable women either. As you said it needs more attention than simply a criminal law policy.

If the measure of reduction in stigma is increased reporting (which I doubt, it’s more complicated and not necessarily related to stigma) and you have increased reporting in the Nordic model and decriminalisation what’s the logic in decriminalising?

Especially in the light of evidence from around the world where decriminalisation has happened and it has opened up sex work as a means of laundering money and legitimising trafficking.

If you want a holistic approach you would have to do much more than simply implement a legal approach. No matter which someone thinks is the best, or ‘least worst’, approach re law that is true surely?

Nevertheless, I think the solution is to tackle poverty and sex inequality. I'm very pessimistic about the prospect that any model of prostitution policy will have the benefits that are claimed for it.

I think decriminalisation is the 'least worst' approach. But it would need to be accompanied by broader social change that alleviates women's poverty and addresses the ubiquitous sexualisation of women by men.

This was probably my exact position about 5 years ago. I now believe prostitution aka a trade in buying women for sex with all the market pressures of any product is not something which should ever exist in a civilised society.

Offred and Ereshkigal You make many good points. I don't really want to take (and then defend) a position on policy because I'm so very pessimistic about it. Today my position is mostly (to paraphrase another poster in another thread): Men, sort your shit out.

Ha ha! OK

Nrft yet but that's good news.
Any state that de criminalises the prostitution of (mainly) women is no better than a pimp.
I have met many prostitutes. Never ever met one who hadn't been abused as a child, and most started on the game as children. It's a continuation of abuse.
Yes there may be the odd few who are from nice backgrounds and it's a real choice.
I don't really care about them though. They can go and get a proper job like the rest of us.

^^Meaning Nordic model good, Germany model bad in case that was unclear!

I don't really care about them though. They can go and get a proper job like the rest of us

This. The right of women who do have genuine choice to choose to be prostituted is less important than the right of disadvantaged women and children to not be prostituted. And the right of all the rest of us to not live in a world where men are encouraged to believe that we are commodities for their sexual use.

I think though we all agree that it isn’t that simple don’t we really? It’s a glib statement. Actually the fact that sex workers feel worried about losing their income through sex work is because it is not really an actual free choice for the most part.

It’s a choice in the context of having no other option available for women that offers the combination of high pay and high degree of flexibility. Where it is a choice (and there is often some degree of choice even for trafficked women actually) then it is a choice made within the context of other options and material reality.

None of us are arguing it is as simple as ‘just get another job’ really...

I wouldn’t discount the possibility that if high pay and high degree of flexibility were available through a variety of other means then no women would choose sex work... I just don’t think ‘wanting to do sex work and sex work being a choice’ is an argument in favour of sex work, no matter how many women feel that way about it.

I’m nowhere near qualified to know model we should have, but why is prostitution so bloody dangerous? We are forever seeing prostitues being murdered and god knows what else.

Of course I know the answer must be men, but then why in the hell do they get away with it?!*?

The choice vs trafficked victims narrative is actually both irrelevant and full of Madonna/whore misogyny.

*It’s a choice in the context of having no other option available for women that offers the combination of high pay and high degree of flexibility. Where it is a choice (and there is often some degree of choice even for trafficked women actually) then it is a choice made within the context of other options and material reality.

None of us are arguing it is as simple as ‘just get another job’ really...

I wouldn’t discount the possibility that if high pay and high degree of flexibility were available through a variety of other means then no women would choose sex work... *

Absolutely this^
Offred this is what I said (less eloquently) earlier in this thread and have been harping on about it on other threads as well.
It's what many sex workers have been saying for a long time now.

The Nordic Model doesn't fix any of the underlying problems (neither does legalisation or decriminalisation though).
The Nordic Model leaves the problems as they are but makes it more dangerous for us while we're working. We push for decriminalisation because it's the best option we have in the current situation.

You’ve not put forward any evidence to support a claim that the Nordic model makes things more dangerous or that decriminalisation makes things safer TBH. Obviously views of actual sex workers re this are important but they must not be coming from lobby groups if they are to be credible.

As I’ve said before, no approach to the law alone is going to be holistic.