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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

164 replies

QuarksandLeptons · 08/07/2018 06:47

Such fantastic news and real progress. The leader of the opposition has come out in favour of the Nordic model.

twitter.com/sarahchampionmp/status/1015603574829658112?s=21

This is real progress. Sarah Champion and Jess Phillips must have been instrumental in explaining why this model is needed to Jeremy Corbyn who had previously voiced support for full decriminalisation. Full decriminalisation legally favours the corporate prostitution industry (pimps and buyers) over the safety and dignity of the women who end up in prostitution.

The Nordic model is the name for a legal approach to prostitution where the woman (or man) selling themselves for sex is decriminalised and is not prosecuted. Support services are provided for people leaving prostitution. Pimps, brothel owners and buyers who make money out of or buy women for sex are criminalised.

This model is in use in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, and Ireland. Rates of trafficking drop when the model is implemented as it reduces the demand for buying women for sex.

More info here:
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

OP posts:
LangCleg · 08/07/2018 15:54

If that's the case then you've only met women who want to leave the sex industry.

Again, how do you know this? Why do you assume? I've given you one piece of information about me, not a life history. As it happens, despite never having been a prostitute myself or engaged in other forms of sex work, I have a wide range of experience concerning this "industry".

And the answer is still NO, I do not want to hear from punters, or believe they have anything to contribute that would be to the benefit of women as an entire class or, more particularly, to the most vulnerable women, whose interests are my priority.

NO.

invisibleoldwoman · 08/07/2018 15:55

Wrong. Germany's law is legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation led to the super-brothels and low pay rates.

I am not sure I understand the distinction between decriminalisation and legalisation and how it matters.

Also, if the Nordic Model is not the solution, what do those opposed to the Nordic Model think is a better solution?

FermatsTheorem · 08/07/2018 15:56

Beaver congratulations on raising a strong daughter. How would you feel if she went into prostitution?

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 15:56

Choice is an illusion.

SardinesAreYum · 08/07/2018 16:00

I don't think there will ever be agreement.

Women who know men and know society and take the view that a society which condones men renting women to fuck is not a society that is friendly to women and girls are not likely to change their minds TBH.

The idea that women who support the nordic model are "targeting" prostitues is ridiculous. We are firmly and unapologetically targeting men who pay for sex.

By the way the point unpthread makes no sense. Why is it better to have some non violent men paying for sex + some violent ones, than just the same numebr of violent ones?

Not to mention that serious physical damage is not the only risk of engaging in prostitution.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/07/2018 16:01

This is an interesting insight into decriminalisation in New Zealand

Offred · 08/07/2018 16:06

Isn’t it funny how increased reporting of assaults on sex workers is seen as unequivocal evidence that full decriminalisation protects sex workers but also unequivocal evidence that the Nordic model increases harm to sex workers....

Thing is it’s not only sex workers that matter, it’s all women. The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

notsolittlegrebe · 08/07/2018 16:09

Invisibleoldwoman - I found this which is a few years old but quite interesting.. be interested to know what others think

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/10/difference-between-decriminalisation-and-legalisation-sex-work%3famp

Tinycitrus · 08/07/2018 16:12

Don’t you think the decriminalisation lobby is largely made up of people who see an opportunity to make a serious amount of money running brothels if it ever became a reality?

And how well regulated would they be? Because when you look at other industries which rely on unskilled labour - labouring, restaurant work, cleaning - there is little regulation and a very high risk of exploitation. Why would prostitution be any different?

Brazenhussy0 · 08/07/2018 16:22

Some facts - prostitutescollective.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Online-Symposium-Report.pdf

And I threatened to copy and paste some of my posts from the other thread to here, so I'm just going to go ahead and do that right now with a few irrelevant bits snipped to shorten it (yes, this is the short version).

------------------------

The Home Affairs Committee acknowledged the difficulties with statistics in their 2017 report. The conclusion was basically that there is not enough reliable information to base changing our laws on and we should wait to see how things pan out in Ireland with the Nordic Model.
(If you’re going to pick just one of my links to read, this should be the one.):
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/26/26.pdf

It's 2018 now, and things are not looking very good for Irish sex workers. Violence towards sex workers has increased by anywhere from 40-70% (depending on which set of statistics you look at.):
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/03/does-nordic-model-work-what-happened-when-ireland-criminalised-buying-sex?amp

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc.

This is a fantastic article by Dr. Kate Lister (March 2018), where she discusses this in some depth:
inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/as-a-sex-historian-this-is-what-i-want-you-to-know-about-the-buying-and-selling-of-sex/

I’ll include an extract, for those who are unwilling to read my many, many links! I do thank you, if you’ve taken the time to read this whole post.

-----------------------

Walker celebrates the first anniversary of Ireland’s Sex Buyer’s Laws, the act that criminalises the purchase of sexual services, but not the selling. But when you actually ask sex workers and sex worker rights groups how they feel about the Nordic model, it’s hard to understand what Walker thinks is worth celebrating. In the year since Ireland brought in the Nordic model there has been a 54% increase in crime against sex workers reported to National Ugly Mugs Ireland, and violent crime is up by 77%. The Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) strongly opposed the introduction of this law and rightly warned that it would lead to increased violence against sex workers. Walker claims she finds it ‘extraordinary that the purchase of a woman’s body for sex is legal in the UK’. I find it extraordinary that anyone would think a system resulting in a 77% increase in violent crime against the very people it claims to protect, is worthy of celebration.

The Nordic model does not work because by criminalising the client, you in turn criminalise the sex worker. How would you fair if the source of your income was suddenly criminalised? Research from the countries that have adopted the Nordic model shows again and again that ‘end demand’ legislation only place sex workers at significantly greater risk of harm. Criminalising clients may reduce demand from those not wishing to commit a crime, but it does not deter those who wish to hurt sex workers. Once demand has been reduced, competition for less desirable clients increases among sex workers, leading to an increase in risky, dangerous behaviour, such as unprotected sex, working in isolation or in deserted areas. As clients become less willing to directly approach sex workers, Sweden and Norway saw the use of third party negotiators (pimps and madams) increase dramatically.

As Walker’s article makes abundantly clear, the Nordic Model is simply a staging post on the road to abolition. It is part of a wider narrative that refuses to see the sex worker as anything other than a victim to be rescued. Despite excellent work done by sex worker rights groups this ‘sex-work saviour complex’ continues to dominate and shape modern narratives surrounding sex workers. By constructing the sex worker as a victim, she is subtly disempowered, stripped of her own agency, and tacitly presented as inferior. Whilst allowing the saviour space to validate their own moral agenda, it reinforces social hierarchy, and stigmatises the ‘rescued’.

Stigma kills

One of the mantras of the sex worker rights movement is ‘Stigma Kills, and the Nordic model directly re-stigmatises sex workers by moralising that selling and buying sexual services is wrong. In Sweden, this stigma is actually viewed as a welcome effect of the Nordic model as it may help put off potential clients, despite the fact that stigma places sex workers at significantly greater risks of violence (as seen in Ireland over the last year). In 2000, John Lowman identified a ‘discourse of disposability’ in media reports on sex workers, by analysing media descriptions of efforts to abolish sex work by politicians, police and local residents. Lowman linked this with a sharp increase in the murders of street sex workers in British Columbia after 1980. He argues that, ‘It appears that the discourse on prostitution of the early 1980s was dominated by demands to get rid of prostitutes from the streets, creating a social milieu in which violence against prostitutes could flourish. This is how stigma works. Once the sex worker is stigmatised as disposable, a message formed, shaped and deployed in debates around abolition, this discourse then influences how sex workers are treated. And they are not treated well under the Nordic model.

Why aren’t we listening to sex workers?

Why aren’t we listening to the sex workers themselves? Every sex worker rights organisation fights the Nordic model and seeks full discrimination, because it keeps people safe. In a survey of over 200 sex workers, researchers from the University of Northumbria found that 96.2% of respondents did not think people should be criminalised for purchasing sex.

The Nordic model and its supporters tacitly presents sex workers as degenerate, disposable victims in need of rescue. The evidence proves that criminalising clients causes significant harm to those in the sex industry.
A central tenet of feminism is bodily autonomy, sexual agency, the right to say yes and the right to say no, and to have that respected. How can you seriously call yourself a feminist if you insist on denying those same rights to your sister sex workers?

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 16:27

Crime reporting against prostitutes is up? Great! That’s exactly what the Nordic model was created to allow.

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 16:28

And prostitution should be stigmatised. It’s bad for society.

Personally, i’d ban hardcore porn too.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 16:31

Thing is it’s not only sex workers that matter, it’s all women. The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

This. And neither the libertarians or the SJWs grasp this.

notsolittlegrebe · 08/07/2018 16:31

Thanks Brazenhussy0, that's really interesting - I will read the links later.

Another question - if the UK went for the decriminalisation route, would there be anything to stop the development of "mega brothels" or indeed any situation where bosses were legally profiting from the services provided by the sex workers? (I know lots of people have lots of different issues with sex work, but personally this is what disturbs me most).

Offred · 08/07/2018 16:31

Exactly, NUMs who are part of an international organisation whose primary aim is to lobby for full decriminalisation. NUMs who have managed to become the providers of all sex worker testimony, who sex workers have been made dependent on for reporting bad punters to each other. NUMs who cite on the one hand that increased reporting in places where there is decriminalisation is unequivocal evidence that full decriminalisation protects sex workers by reducing stigma and therefore encouraging reporting but also claims increased reporting re the Nordic model is unequivocal evidence that that the Nordic model increases violence and stigma?

Offred · 08/07/2018 16:33

Not too many facts there TBH... quite a lot of ideology from people with various interests in full decriminalisation...

Offred · 08/07/2018 16:35

I’m glad for those people who are happy with sex work. However, the thing about ‘what would you do if your occupation became illegal?’ - take up a different occupation TBH. The fact that this is hard for many sex workers is one of the reasons why this choosey choice narrative is quite simply a lie...

ResistanceIsNecessary · 08/07/2018 16:37

But equally a central tenet of feminism is that women should not be objectified nor treated as sexual objects for the male gaze. How does this reconcile with the ability to order up a woman in the same way you would a pizza?

LangCleg · 08/07/2018 16:37

Thing is it’s not only sex workers that matter, it’s all women. The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

Well said.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 16:39

NUMs who cite on the one hand that increased reporting in places where there is decriminalisation is unequivocal evidence that full decriminalisation protects sex workers by reducing stigma and therefore encouraging reporting but also claims increased reporting re the Nordic model is unequivocal evidence that that the Nordic model increases violence and stigma?

Yes, exactly. See also, prostitution is a perfectly reasonable lifestyle choice that any woman might make and a totally acceptable job because it's so empowering but also that women are in mortal danger if the clients are criminalised.

LassWiADelicateAir · 08/07/2018 16:44

The difference between "decriminalisation" and "legalised" is like splitting already split hairs.

Some clarification: under legalisation, sexwork is controlled by the government and is legal only under certain state-specified conditions^- so brothels and pimping (with pimps re- branded as "agent" or "security") are legal and being a prostitute is just another job.

Decriminalisation involves the removal of all prostitution-specific laws, although sex workers and sex work businesses must still operate within the laws of the land, as must any businesses^- so brothels and pimping (with pimps re-branded as "agent" or "security")are legal and being a prostitute is just another job.

Simply for prostitution-specific criminal law to be dropped and sex work treated as any other business so brothels and
pimping are legal and being a prostitute is "treated as any other business".

Just as sex workers would be protected by labour, health and safety, human trafficking and other relevant law, so they would have to abide by it - so effectively normalising one of the most abhorrent commercial transaction it is possible to devise.

Imagine being told your benefit will be cut if you don't want to fill the vacancy in your local brothel. The pro prostitution brigade regularly tell us how being a prostitute is better than working in McDonald's. Very few people would support a young fit and healthy benefit claimant thinking they were too grand to work in McDonald's so if being a prostitute is a legitimate job like any other why would anyone be allowed to refuse it and retain their benefits?
(For the avoidance of any doubt no slight is intended to either McDonald's or their employees- they are being used for purpose of example only)

TerfsUp · 08/07/2018 16:45

I will stick my head over the parapet here and offer a minority opinion - not because of anything that Brazenhussy0 has to say - but out of my own principles.

What I would like to see is the end to forced prostitution and the trafficking of women and children. Those who perpetrate those activities should be punished severely.

However, I do not believe that prostitution should be stigmatised or made illegal. I do believe, however, that it should be checked and licensed by the state with strict regulations regarding who, how and where.

LassWiADelicateAir · 08/07/2018 16:47

The ECP campaign mirrors that of MSP Jean Urquhart who, backed by sex worker organisations and health charities, is calling for sex work to be decriminalised in Scotland

Thankfully Jean Urquhart's half - baked proposals don't seem to have got any traction.

kistanbul · 08/07/2018 16:48

Thank for the links @Brazenhussy0

I know the Home Affairs Committee report Keith Vaz was chairing the Committee when it published that report. He later resigned for engaging the services of a prostitute. Sadly, his actions tainted the report. I don't think we can see it as a reliable source.

It sounds like the government promised to publish figures in June 2017 but the election got in the way and there's been nothing since.

Looking at the different evidence, it seems that there's no model that will protect the women from harm.

Opheliah · 08/07/2018 16:51

The majority of us who work indoors and are happy with what we do are very rarely taken into account because we don't come into contact with charities running exit programmes
Well the term "bully for you" comes to mind. You probably have no real reason to access exit programmes. Probably had no real reason to get help.
The Nordic model will not prevent people like you from making an income. Your clients are not all going to get arrested at your door. You need to report them to arrest them.
This helps you.