Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

[QuarksandLeptons]

Such fantastic news and real progress. The leader of the opposition has come out in favour of the Nordic model.

twitter.com/sarahchampionmp/status/1015603574829658112?s=21

This is real progress. Sarah Champion and Jess Phillips must have been instrumental in explaining why this model is needed to Jeremy Corbyn who had previously voiced support for full decriminalisation. Full decriminalisation legally favours the corporate prostitution industry (pimps and buyers) over the safety and dignity of the women who end up in prostitution.

The Nordic model is the name for a legal approach to prostitution where the woman (or man) selling themselves for sex is decriminalised and is not prosecuted. Support services are provided for people leaving prostitution. Pimps, brothel owners and buyers who make money out of or buy women for sex are criminalised.

This model is in use in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, and Ireland. Rates of trafficking drop when the model is implemented as it reduces the demand for buying women for sex.

More info here:
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

I hope he has the influence to take this forward and to make it party policy. If no men choose to use women in this way it can be real progress. Thank you to the women pushing on this.

This is good news. When is Labour going to stop harrying party women for objecting to authoritarian misogyny though?

Bleat?

Such a relief. Can't believe it took persuading for him to realise this but phew.

Agree is good news.

I have no interest in policies that encourage men to sexually exploit women, or to see women and girls as consumable objects even more than they do already.

Paying for sec should be stigmatized. Reducing demand is a good thing for society.

Trafficked women and children aren’t likely to respond to surveys.

Can't say I'm particularly interested in what the usual john contingent who always show up to comment on threads like this have to say.

The hypocrisy here would be funny if it wasn’t over such serious issues.

Self-ID – puts women at risk in favour of an ideology, proponents refuse to listen to the women who will be affected by it, disregards evidence that doesn’t fit the narrative.

Nordic Model - puts women at risk in favour of an ideology, proponents refuse to listen to the women who will be affected by it, disregards evidence that doesn’t fit the narrative.

But because the Nordic Model happens to fit with your ideology, that one gets a free pass to put women (and men) in the sex industry at risk of harm. If you genuinely want to help the women in the sex industry, campaign for other options for women and better support that means we won’t ‘end up’ in the sex industry.
Don’t pull the rug out from underneath us leaving us with no alternatives but to continue in our jobs under much more dangerous circumstances.

If you insist on viewing the majority of us as victims, in what other situation do we ignore the voices of victims and tell them that we know what’s best for them? In what other situation do we ignore victims when they tell us what support they need to keep them safe?

I do not support self-ID and I do not support the Nordic Model.

(@LassWiADelicateAir I exclude you from this. You’ve already said elsewhere that you’re not that fussed about self-ID. We may disagree strongly about sex work, but you are no hypocrite and, for that, you have my respect.)

My understanding was that a significant proportion of sex workers don't support the Nordic model and believe it makes them less safe? Or am I miss informed?

@notsolittlegreb

You are not mistaken. Over 90% of sex workers do not support the Nordic Model because we are well aware it puts us at significantly increased risk of harm. (Since it's implementation in Ireland, violence towards sex workers has increased by about 70%, while no arrests of punters have been made.)

Very good article by Dr. Kate Lister (March 2018):
inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/as-a-sex-historian-this-is-what-i-want-you-to-know-about-the-buying-and-selling-of-sex/

The SNP conference endorsed the Nordic model at conference last year but so far has done nothing to take it forward unfortunately.

That's a shame. It's so easy for govermment to say that they support this, but even easier to do nothing about it.

Can't say I'm particularly interested in what the usual john contingent who always show up to comment on threads like this have to say.

@AngryAttackKittens I'm a sex worker. Any interest in what I have to say?

Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well. If nothing else, they are the only ones who can tell you why they choose to see sex workers.

brazen decrim puts women at risk by further supporting the patriarchal idea that men are entitled to sex and women should provide it.
Male entitlement to sex causes so many issues in society (rape, harassment, sexual abuse in marriage and to children) and the legitimisation of prostitution props up that entitlement.
As I always say on these threads, the prostitutes agency and motivations are not really what I'm interested in. I want to talk about what model is most likely to change the John's attitudes to women. I don't think decrim will do that.

Yes awesome sitting around chatting to a bunch of men who see women as a set of holes is a great idea for the feminism board on MN.

We know what men think of women, and men who pay for sex are a subset of men. I know men who have paid for sex, I think they're total cunts (for want of a better word).

2 recent cases:

Woman who had kids was working as a prostitute, the men were sexually abusing her kids while they were there, in the other rooms. She got done for not looking after her children properly. None of the men got done, not even a mention in the article of looking for them.

Girl was kidnapped and drugged and the two men put an ad out. Men came to pay for sex. They MUST have realised that she was v young, and drugged. None called the police, they all fucked her.
She escaped and the 2 men were prosecuted. Not a mention of looking for any of the men who raped her.

Then you can look at rotherham, at the men who solicit schoolgirls, I've been asked "how much" more than once...

Men who pay for sex are not "good men" on the whole, they see women and girls as commodities, as holes. This is not a surprise as it's how lots of men feel about us, if you scratch the surface.

The sale of female bodies undermines and supports this view of women.

Another thought:
I watched an episode of "beign human" I think it was, the first one. One of the robot women was in a brothel, and when they man came in and was fuckign her we were supposed to feel that this was bad.
Yet, when flesh and blood women are prostitued in films, in dramas, it is usually presented as not-bad. As fine.
That was interesting to see. When it's a non human we are expected to understand that this is a bad thing, but when it's a woman, not so much.

Quentin - You'll have to excuse me for caring more about the immediate threat of being beaten or robbed than I care about men feeling entitled to sex and the wider impact of that.

As I said upthread, if you want to see the sex industry shrink, give women more options with flexible employment.
Solve the issues women face with poverty, childcare, disabilities, addictions, caring/family duties that are incompatible with current employment options, and you will see a natural decline in the number of women entering sex work without putting them in increased danger.

Decriminalisation isn't perfect, no model is. But it has been proven to be a much safer model for sex workers in our current situation.

That would be the same Sarah champion who spent a night in jail for assaulting her husband

The Nordic model simply pushes prostitution underground so that it’s not as visible . Women are not made safer by this law

For traffickers and pimps it’s Christmas come early
For independent sex workers like Brazen Hussey it won’t stop her working just make it harder and more difficult to screen her clients.

People like Sarah Champion are not interested in speaking to all sex workers only the ones that fit with her agenda .

*Woman who had kids was working as a prostitute, the men were sexually abusing her kids while they were there, in the other rooms. She got done for not looking after her children properly. None of the men got done, not even a mention in the article of looking for them.

Girl was kidnapped and drugged and the two men put an ad out. Men came to pay for sex.*

We already have laws to protect child abuse victims (and against trafficking, before that comes up). Perhaps we should be enforcing those existing laws, rather than creating new laws that criminals still won't give a stuff about but that do punish and put at risk innocent people.

Not all punters are child abusers (it's a bit nuts to imply that they are.) A lot of them report trafficking and child abuse when they suspect it.
Criminalising the punters will, of course, stop them from reporting anything though.

"A lot of them report trafficking and child abuse when they suspect it. "

They don't though do they.

There was a thing about this I read a while ago - wouldn't be able to find it now. The men in the stuations in the 2 news reports, they didn't report. In the one with the kidnapped girl, they just put an ad out, it wasn't their mates or anything, it was ordinary men who reponded to an ad for a prostitute.

Men who pay for sex are scum, too fucking right they should be stigmatised.

p*nternet had/has plenty of comments abtut thinking the woman was not there of her own free will and fucking her anyway.

The idea that loads of men are shit hot on ringing the police when they suspect trafficking is a nice idea but it's not true.

The idea that loads of men are shit hot on ringing the police when they suspect trafficking is a nice idea but it's not true.

I can't say there are 'loads', there's no official figure for this - which also means you can't say that they don't report.

I do know that some of my own clients have reported it when they've suspected trafficking or abuse. (And some tell me about it hoping I'll report it so they don't have to risk outting themselves as a punter.)

Stigma is not a good thing in our industry - it leads to the industry going underground and increased violence.
We need to keep lines of communication open with the police, not create a situation where punters and sex workers are too afraid to report crimes.

Not all sex workers oppose the Nordic Model. I support it because it streamlines the process and the way it is enforced is pro-worker.

It's really good news. After being pro Corbyn then going massively off him, I'm warming to the Corbyn camp again.

This "going underground" argument is always repeated.

Prostitution in the UK is already "underground". You can't be blatant about it. Adding one more thing to the long list of things that are already illegal won't change an awful much.