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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lesbians protest at London Pride #getthelout

999 replies

miri1985 · 07/07/2018 12:58

twitter.com/hashtag/getthelout?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Ehashtag

www.facebook.com/346828442474237/posts/403582420132172/

These women are bloody brave, if I was wearing a hat I'd tip it to them

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
bigoldscaredycat · 08/07/2018 07:31

Absolutely gutted that one of my favourite authors, Marian Keyes, has just liked a tweet by a TRA saying ‘No terfs at Pride’

She’s an intelligent older feminist - devastated to see her condoning this hate speech against women.

Lesbians protest at London Pride #getthelout
Mummyoflittledragon · 08/07/2018 07:33

bigoldscarey Sad Shock

pachyderm · 08/07/2018 07:38

Marian has only heard of this about six months ago, she's totally ignorant on the subject. Which is inexcusable for someone who spends her life on Twitter. I saw it happen, she asked what a terf was and 100 woke idiots said ooh a very nasty person Marian, they say they're feminists but they're not, and she said oh, ok.

Disappointing. But her cool friends like Sali and Hadley are getting gender critical, she'll probably go along with them in a while Hmm

TerfsUp · 08/07/2018 07:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ - this repeats a previously deleted post. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

bigoldscaredycat · 08/07/2018 07:47

Yes hopefully Marian will get it soon once she sees beyond the rainbows and the love is love hyperbole and recognises the absolutely raging misogyny of the trans movement.

TransplantsArePlants · 08/07/2018 08:09

I always thought Marian Keyes would be someone who would enjoy the more reasoned debate on MN.I agree that maybe if she read a little context on here. she'd understand what us 'terfs' Hmm were saying

This Terf loves your books Marian!

ADastardlyThing · 08/07/2018 08:21

Excellent! My FB is rather full of links to news on this and "wtf is this? Is this right? Are lesbians being told they should be into dick?" this morning from people who I knew were GC but now clearly feel up for sticking their head above the parapet.

I'm seeing a shift people :)

bigoldscaredycat · 08/07/2018 08:26

This thread is a really excellent way of highlighting what lesbians put up with and why they were protesting -

mobile.twitter.com/NaturalAllWoman/status/1015706813914853377

Juells · 08/07/2018 08:29

@TerfsUp

Thank you. I was going to say the same thing myself. You are male and you are attracted to women - that does not make you a lesbian.

That was what peaked me, on another message board - someone I'd always admired, who was living life as a woman, mentioned one day that they were a lesbian :( It was the first I'd heard of anything so bizarre, mentioned that I thought they were simply heterosexual, caused great offence.

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse · 08/07/2018 08:31

The comments on the pink news Facebook page Shock I spent a while last night reporting the ones inciting violence. It's sad that young people who have had so many advantages are so repressive and inarticulate.

StepBackNow · 08/07/2018 08:33

I really hope the police are monitoring the threats of violence. It's time these men found themselves in court to account for their actions.

litereally · 08/07/2018 08:42

Congratulations wonderful women, I wish I had been strong enough to be there!

Like fucking everything, the baseline of all of this is bullshit patriarchal hatred of women. Being angry at lesbians and calling them anti-trans does nothing but reinforce the societal headline that women are bad, men are good. If a woman says something, its wrong, but if a man says something, its right. Look at them, those BAD women. Not good, like those GOOD women. Transwomen are REAL WOMEN. Lesbians are BAD WOMEN. They don't want GOOD women to be WOMEN. THEY'RE the ones hurting women, by not being GOOD. By acting like they can change the world. By pretending that they're not second class citizens. That the law applies to them.

So much of this thread is the same old thing: You've just MISUNDERSTOOD transwomen! Give them the benefit of the doubt, they're not TRYING to hurt people! Why do you HATE men? (Which transwomen AREN'T, by the way, but you still HATE them because you're too STUPID to see that they're more women than YOU, you gross dykes). Why are you listening to what people have SAID? Surely you know that in their HEARTS they are women. No one would ever lie about that sort of thing, because being a woman is bad! Why would someone CHOOSE to be a woman if they could be a man?

ARGH. Is it time for a breakfast wine?

Sex is a fact, but factual labels should have no value judgement put on them. It's not bad to be a woman. It's not bad to be a man. I swear we got so close to actually maybe getting this across in society when I was growing up. People were starting to get the message that saying "girls can't do x" was bad! Girls could do ANYTHING! Boys could do ANYTHING! Sure, boys were significantly better at succeeding at doing anything, succeeding in traditionally female spaces, but surely the girls were going to be tech CEOs, formula 1 drivers, jockeys, leader of the labour party, eventually. All of this progress is good progress!
But now its 2018 and I saw headlines that a woman has become head of a 100 year old fashion house for the first time, there's another female prime minister, but she's a Tory and believes that men are like THIS and women are like THIS, the implication being that she can lead her country but not her household, lesbians are the bad guys and hold immense power somehow while also being fat ugly losers no one wants to fuck, ew. Penises can be female and everyone cares about how people refer to them when they're not around? Women are getting beaten in the street around the world, murdered by their partners, raped every single minute of every day, there are public figures defending cultural misogyny that ends in women's deaths and mutilation and I'm like...what the fuck happened??

Radical feminists and the trans movement should be allies, if things were logical. Our common enemy is the patriarchy that tells us that what we like and how we act are wrong, by some nebulous rule they made up, that punishes us for not playing by what those rules say. Be a macho man. Be a submissive handmaiden. Do what we say and excuse what we do. You exist at our whim, we can destroy you when we want and then claim you made us do it.

Both sides believe that our sex doesn't and shouldn't define who we are as people.

The difference is fundamental though: Radical feminists believe that personality is independent of sex - but we know sex still is there. we know from experience that you can't opt out of persecution based on your sex. You can't deny what biology manifested in you as you developed - if you've got female primary and secondary sexual characteristics, you'll be treated differently by society than someone with male ones. The deck is stacked against you in a society that fetishises vulnerability and puts maleness and its strengths on top, and femaleness and its strengths on the bottom.

The radical feminist solution is to change society to stop thinking women are lesser, inferior, bad. To liberate women from the patriarchy. This will also have the side effect of liberating men from the patriarchy, but it's not the goal. The goal is to save women from being underestimated, undermined, murdered, raped, gaslit, abused, underpaid, exploited - because they are women. That your sex should be inconsequential. It's not biological essentialism, it's biological realism. It's not saying 'you have a penis, therefore you should be like this, I have a vagina, therefore I should be like this'. It's saying 'you have a penis, I have a vagina. If we have sex we might make a baby. But everything else is optional.'

The trans line is that society isn't wrong and even if it is, you can't change society, you can only change what you have individual power over. Yourself. Your immediate surroundings. Change yourself, play the game, and society will do the rest. It'll reward you, by telling you you made the right choice. That it was right, you were never a man. You were never really a woman. You were broken, but you're fixed now. You can be a martyr for the cause.

One side wants to bring the system down. The other wants the system to give them what it promised.

(definitely time for breakfast wine)

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 08:44

Re that Marian Keyes tweet. Isn't Avery Edison the prostate owning human who wrote about how lesbian women should accept zir penis is different than a male penis and want to be penetrated with it?

R0wantrees · 08/07/2018 08:49

Article from Pink News about WPUK 25th April 2018

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/25/university-of-oxford-protest-transgender-feminism-womans-place/

"A meeting by self-titled feminist group A Woman’s Place UK (WPUK), which hosts regular events to reportedly discuss potential changes to the Gender Recognition Act, is expected to happen in Oxford on Wednesday evening.

The hosting of these events is regularly criticised as A Woman’s Place UK has faced several accusations of anti-trans behaviour in recent months.

At one of their events last year, transgender women were branded “horrible, hateful, misogynistic bastards.”

This misquote/lie which was repeated by many TRAs comes from a speech made by Anne Ruzylo.

From WPUK:
"Anne Ruzylo – former prison officer, active trade unionist for thirty years, former Labour Party Women’s Officer Bexhill and Battle CLP. Subjected to an orchestrated smear campaign for her views on gender identity, prompting resignation in solidarity with her by entire executive committee of Bexhill and Battle CLP. Woman’s Place UK were honoured to give her a platform in Cambridge on 23 November 2017, alongside Helen Steel and Linda Bellos."

the speech can be watched in full here & the actual comment from 11:00 onwards:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=Lhma9kbQKXk

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 08:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UpstartCrow · 08/07/2018 08:52

That link contains malware, dont use it. Report the post to @MNHQ and get it deleted.

Moonkissedlegs · 08/07/2018 08:55

I had a gander at Owen Jone's Twitter because I wondered if after his 'you are erasing me as a gay man' comments, he would have enough self awareness to leave this one alone.

Oh no, he was retweeting about it all day.

What. A. Fuck. Ing. Hypocrite.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 08:57

Will do upstart. Annoyed I can't the text anywhere else

R0wantrees · 08/07/2018 08:59

Statement by 'Get the L Out':

"Why “Get The L Out” ?
July 5, 2018
Angela C. Wild
Who We Are

Get the L Out is a group of lesbian and feminist individuals and organisations, opposing the increasingly anti-lesbian and misogynistic LGBT movement and the erasure of lesbians

Why We Protest

We believe that lesbian rights are under attack by the trans movement and we encourage lesbians everywhere to leave the LGBT and form their own independent movement, as well as to be vocal and take action against the proposed changes to the GRA.

Get the L Out believes trans politics (with uncritical support from the LGBT movement) does the following:

Promotes the social transition of lesbians, encouraging them to present as straight men thus favouring the pretence of heterosexuality over lesbianism – this is nothing more than a form of conversion therapy.
Promotes the medical transition of lesbians and pushes harmful drugs (untested hormone blockers, Lupron etc.) as well as unnecessary medical practices on perfectly healthy bodies – these are a form of misogynist medical abuse against lesbians.
Promotes the rights of heterosexual males who “identify” as women and lesbians (despite most of them still retaining their male genitals) over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners. This new ‘queer’ LGBT politics thus coerces lesbians to accept the penis as a female organ and promotes heterosexual intercourse between male and female as a form of lesbian sex. This is simply a new facet to rape culture and compulsory heterosexuality." (continues)

getthelout.wordpress.com/author/frenchradfem/

Lesbians protest at London Pride #getthelout
ErrolTheDragon · 08/07/2018 09:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 09:02

Have reported

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 09:03

It said this among other things.

Lesbians protest at London Pride #getthelout
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 08/07/2018 09:05

Ah but errol have just realized the link is in your post as well so you might want to report that too

Ofew · 08/07/2018 09:06

Bespin

Ofew having meet a number of men that are gay who have trans male partners I would say that there are a few. but you are going to tell me there bi so would. you tell them that if not then stop doing it on here.

I went to bed and woke up to see this thread has taken a weird turn.

Of course some men have trans male partners. I'm not actually that bothered if they call themselves gay or not, but I think if they were being strictly accurate they would call themselves bi. (I say this as a pescatarian who sometimes calls myself a vegetarian because in a particular situation it's easier than explaining I'm basically morally contradictory. I prefer not to call myself a vegetarian because, well, I'm not. I wouldn't force a "proper" vegetarian to eat fish).

Anyhow, the real point of my post upthread wasn't so much about this. It was that those many gay men who do not want a relationship with a transman are not being subjected to the same harassment as lesbians who do not want a relationship with a transwoman. I suspect the reason for this is very simple: lesbians are women.

boatyardblues · 08/07/2018 09:06

I didn’t get any warning on my iphone. Is that because the malware doesn’t affect safari?