I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

[loveyouradvice]

.....it is as simple as that.

I want safe spaces where I know I can relax and know that there will not be male bodies present.... whether it is at the swimming pool, or in the ladies, or in so many situations...

And I find that in this tough world of ours in other situations I feel uplifted by being in women- only groups, nurturing, supporting, caring, sharing....

I know that many transwomen badly want to be women but the reality is that they do not have female bodies - their bodies can be very threatening, especially given so many of them do indeed keep male genitalia.

And more than that.... I feel threatened that I will lose those precious supportive women's spaces, having heard of so many others they have destroyed, whether it is Michfest or lesbian groups or even just women's groups where vulnerable women have ended up fleeing.

Is it ironic that the only sensitive transsexuals we seem to come across - the likes of Miranda Yardley et al - are quite clear that they are men and are keen to understand a "woman's lot".

I would feel far more reassured if there were transpeople who were wanting to be assimilated into a woman's world by understanding and sharing our causes, which never seems to happen and we never hear about - all we hear is of those who are closing down by demanding that trans issues are not excluded.....It feels so strange, I have never heard a woman campaigning for the end of FGM complain that it is not about them but about others....

Sorry... rather rambling and incoherent... I feel so distressed and worried by all of this

I was going to say 'on here too' but didn't have to as your first response shows what the problem is. They just cannot help themselves.

This is a. Open public forum not a womans only. Space and if you do not wish for people to interact with you then that's fine, I happen to feel sorry that somone is effected like this and would want to offer reassurance that some trans poeple are trying to make a difference in. Woman's issues around the world and that we not the threat sometimes people feel we are

So you keep telling us.

I'm not at all threatened by male bodies in women's spaces. Not a problem. Bring on the penises.

Except that I took my daughters swimming last year and there was a naked man in the women's changing room. My mouth said stuff before I had a chance to engage my brain. He left (still naked).

I don't think he was trans. But what do I know? There's no way to deduce someone's gender when they're naked. I could only deduce his sex. Which he was waving about as if he owned the place. Wanker.

Personally, there are spaces that I need to be biological women only ( or at least penis free) or I would curtail activities such as keeping fit. Rape leaves a mark.

It seems most men respect this, and Many transwomen seem to respect this. And when genuine respect is there, then I would probably be ok sharing facilities with these people also. But that is so hard to judge.

And I would not like that transwomen have to curtail their activities due to lack of suitable facilities. I suspect that many transwomen may feel very uncomfortable around men in some situations. I suspect many transwomen may have suffered abuse and violence. And I am happy to support finding a solution that helps them. Just not at my expense!

And the ones that want to force themselves into women's spaces, which seeem to correlate with the ones who have no surgical or hormonal interventions.. .

Here’s a link to a recent You Gov Poll, it shows only 18% agree with self ID.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/03/exclusive-just-13-of-tory-voters-agree-with-governments-proposed-transgender-policy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The public are only just having their eyes opened to this subject and they do not like it! The feminist board on MNHQ, is not a lone voice concerning this madness

I've mostly worked in a male dominated world, I like the company of men but those few female only places left have been a sanctuary at times. In the past I was puzzled by the way a transwoman colleague junior to me would use physically dominant body language to assert control in the ladies (that we were the only people using) but that was many years ago when I was still under the delusion that transwomen wanted to be women. Now I realise they want to control women and womanhood and in that context that behaviour makes sense.

@Bespin, sadly some of you are the threat we fear. The Transcrime and Terfisaslur websites collate ample evidence of this. I've gone from seeing transwomen on the train as brave for being out in public to wondering if they are Schrödinger's Terf Slayer[1]. Unsurprisingly, my willingness to share women's spaces with them has disappeared. Attempts to find comparable crime by natal women haven't come up fruitless, but the rate of offending is much lower, so I remain willing to share with natal women.

I will support any fight for a third space and anti trans-bashing/trans-firing/trans-denied-housing laws, but I can no longer endorse you entering women's spaces. This time last year, I would have endorsed that.

[1] This is a reference to Tara Wood describing /h(er|im)self/ as "Tara the Terf Slayer" after /h(er|is)/ trial, as well as the Schrödinger's Rapist explanation of women's structural fear of men as a class.

I agree. I do not want any male bodies in any of the places where I would expect to only see female bodies. To me it makes no difference whether or not they think they are a woman whatever that means. I do not share their delusion and I do not want them there.

Third spaces will surely have to be the way forward if as they say men are so dangerous to them in their own male spaces.

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it? Now if only we could get Justine to take a look at those numbers, because I think she's been gaslighted into thinking that the general public is pro self-ID. They very clearly are not.

The Transcrime and Terfisaslur websites collate ample evidence of this. I've gone from seeing transwomen on the train as brave for being out in public to wondering if they are Schrödinger's Terf Slayer[1]. Unsurprisingly, my willingness to share women's spaces with them has disappeared.

This is me too. When you've seen literally hundreds of members of a group that claims to be the most vulnerable in society threatening to kick women's heads in your brain recalibrates the risk assessment a bit.

The sort of men we can trust in women only spaces such as changing rooms are the ones that support them being women only.

And the disingenuous reply above just shows the problem. The first post challenges the right to your own feelings, and the right to want single sex spaces.

No one said Mumsnet is a safe space or a women only space, so reacting as if that was said is dishonest, and an attempt to reframe the debate.

Single sex spaces exist because there is both a need and a desire for them, for reasons including privacy and risk assessment.
Decent people respect that.

What difference in women’s issues are you trying to make, Bespin? Just for example?

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it? Now if only we could get Justine to take a look at those numbers, because I think she's been gaslighted into thinking that the general public is pro self-ID. They very clearly are not.

Too many people in power or positions of responsibility, have swallowed the TRA’s properganda. I always thought when the general public were exposed to it, they would not agree.
So what are the Girl Guides and all those other people “ahead of the law” going to do now? I would hope they will start listening to the general public, even if they wouldnt listen to feminists.

I will support any fight for a third space and anti trans-bashing/trans-firing/trans-denied-housing laws, but I can no longer endorse you entering women's spaces. This time last year, I would have endorsed that.

A year ago, I would have endorsed post-SRS male bodies in most women's spaces (not refuges, mental health wards or prisons, but most). Now, I don't. At all. Ever. I have seen so much text book male pattern abusive behaviour in transactivism, I can't see any way of it being properly safe for women to share.

The best I can do for trans people now is support third spaces.

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it?

Yes, it is. They spent all that time attacking the wording of the Wings Over Scotland polling question, which got 25% support, too. And now, just a few months later, Pink News commissions a poll and can't even get wording that achieves support over 18%. And only 27% in the youngest demographic.

This speaks volumes.

I really and truly cannot take anyone at face value when they tell us that they are a trans woman and their name on here is an anagram of B-penis.

From a be-cunted one, that in itself is just so goady it makes me cringe every time I see it. Just some sort of sick joke on women.

Actually, to be fair on Bespin, it's the name of a planet from Star Wars.

Posted too soon. It's from The Empire Strikes Back.

Yes I am aware of that - however other names that are not an anagram of B-penis are available.