I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

[loveyouradvice]

.....it is as simple as that.

I want safe spaces where I know I can relax and know that there will not be male bodies present.... whether it is at the swimming pool, or in the ladies, or in so many situations...

And I find that in this tough world of ours in other situations I feel uplifted by being in women- only groups, nurturing, supporting, caring, sharing....

I know that many transwomen badly want to be women but the reality is that they do not have female bodies - their bodies can be very threatening, especially given so many of them do indeed keep male genitalia.

And more than that.... I feel threatened that I will lose those precious supportive women's spaces, having heard of so many others they have destroyed, whether it is Michfest or lesbian groups or even just women's groups where vulnerable women have ended up fleeing.

Is it ironic that the only sensitive transsexuals we seem to come across - the likes of Miranda Yardley et al - are quite clear that they are men and are keen to understand a "woman's lot".

I would feel far more reassured if there were transpeople who were wanting to be assimilated into a woman's world by understanding and sharing our causes, which never seems to happen and we never hear about - all we hear is of those who are closing down by demanding that trans issues are not excluded.....It feels so strange, I have never heard a woman campaigning for the end of FGM complain that it is not about them but about others....

Snappity as per usual is conflating "sex" with "gender identity".

Sex segregated spaces are segregated on the basis of reproductive sex. That is female and male. These spaces are available to trans persons in exactly the same way they are available to the rest of the population.

There are 2 sexes and both are catered for.

It's so interesting to read the responses to this title from TRAs. Essentially I'm hearing "That's unfortunate. But I don't really care. What about me?"

Every time, the appeals to our socialized empathy, while displaying none themselves. It's quite instructive.

@floralbunting exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Like many other posters, I previously had a lot of sympathy and empathy which has slowly been eroded away in the face of a lot of the propaganda and attitudes I've been faced with

Sex segregated spaces are segregated on the basis of reproductive sex. That is female and male. These spaces are available to trans persons in exactly the same way they are available to the rest of the population.

No. Single sex spaces in terms of the law use legal sex

No snappity, in the uk at least single sex spaces can use biological sex not GRC legal sex.

I do not know why anyone is trying to negotiate or explain things to someone who thinks that a woman who has had a hysterectomy has a 'blind canal'..they are obviously never going to see things the same way as a female will.

Oh snappity, if you had brains you'd be dangerous.

''in the uk at least single sex spaces can use biological sex not GRC legal sex''

This is why trans activists are now claiming that transitioning means changing your biological sex.

This thread is microcosm for the entire GC viewpoint regarding sex segregated spaces.

Woman sets boundaries and explains rationale.

Transperson professes understanding of the need for the boundaries and attempts to transgress them on the basis of boundaries not applying to special cases (like them).

Woman reasserts boundaries, other women rally round, shore up boundaries and add additional rationale to justify necessity of boundaries.

Transperson declares boundaries unpoliceable, claiming they have already been stealthily transgressed multiple times.

Women say, but this is a reason to impose even stricter boundaries, not a reason to remove them entirely.

Transperson declares themselves more entitled to be inside the boundaries than the woman who identified the need for them, fundraised for them and built them.

Women say, ‘build your own spaces! Set your own boundaries! We will help you’

Transperson says ‘but your spaces already exist, and there aren’t many of us, why don’t you just move up?’

Women say, ‘please respect our self built boundaries’

Transperson says ‘if you don’t let me and all of my friends in immediately we will ALL die and it WILL BE YOUR FAULT’

Women say ‘....’

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police

You are missing the point completely. A male in a female space threatens by his very presence, he doesn't need to do anything. The act of deliberately entering the female space is an aggressive act.

Aye, it is so fucking predictable. And dull. So boring.

We are all special non-binary snowflakes. Get the fuck over it. And sit the fuck down.

I think you've hit the nail on the head betty.

Good summary Betty.

That could be posted on every single thread. Put up and shut up because we are more important than you.

It's so predictable that I sometimes wonder if we have fifth columnists hereabouts.

I'm not budging.

I need my women only space.

I don't want male people in female spaces either. At all.

The thing is, the Equality Act says that trans people have to be permitted to use spaces meant for the "gender" with which they "identify", as Gender Reassignment is a protected characteristic. I know it allows for exemptions, but it strongly implies that these will be applicable in a minority of cases, and that they have to be demonstrated as being necessary in any given case, talking about exclusion having to be proven to be a "proportionate means" of achieving a "legitimate aim". I think that the maintainence of single-sex spaces is a legitimate aim, and that the proportionate means of achieving it would be the barring of everyone not of that sex, but what do I know?(!)

I will be going into an NHS hospital for several months quite soon and I have looked up its policy on providing services to trans patients. It explains that they do not need a GRC, nor to have made any effort to transition medically or surgically, to be placed in the same-sex ward of their "preferred gender". The document was all about making sure that trans patients feel comfortable and safe while in the hospital. There is no mention of consulting with other patients sharing these spaces about their comfort and safety, and no hint that making use of the exemptions in the EA would be considered under any circumstances.

So, if I am in that hospital and there is a transwoman on the single-SEX part of the ward with me, and I don't like it because they are obviously male, it's tough. And this is a psychiatric hospital, where people could be considered particularly vulnerable. So I have no faith in the exemptions of the EA ever being used. Same-sex services and facilities exist only in name.

I'd love someone to tell me I've got that wrong!

Why is it the sole responsibility and problem of women to sort out how a third space might work effectively? What does the potential issues to sort out with a third space have to do with negating women's right to say no to the removal of all sex segregation?

As someone said yesterday, the trans lobby is funded up to the eyebrows, there is a HUGE amount of money involved, and it would be a piece of cake to create LGBT refuges. Which would probably be far better resourced and funded than the ones that women fundraised for and created for other women when there was no funding of any kind being given to them. But it's not about meeting the need for refuge, support and resources: it's about ensuring that women are stamped on and allowed to have absolutely nothing.

You don't have it wrong, Flourella. You can obey or give up your right to access that service. And that will be seen as a fair and just penalty because if you fail to believe what you're told then you are subhuman and it is fine to abandon all norms and standards of behaviour towards you.

NO impact assessments are being carried out on women and children in implementing this.

Is anyone still struggling to see the massive misogyny involved?

@GhostTess

^There are vastly less trans women than non trans and I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy*

I think respecting women’s boundaries and right to say no wouldn’t be outside the bounds of empathy.

You say transwomen need a space away from men - we say yes we no how dangerous men are that’s why we don’t want them in our sex segregated spaces.

Why don’t you try and tackle the culture of male aggression and entitlement instead of trying to push into women’s spaces ?

I don't feel comfortable either (in fact I feel livid) for all the reasons so eloquantly laid out by we women.

Once again, why should we pander to men?

For the record, I am not a trans woman

In all reality, Snappity, we have no way of knowing that, for a number of reasons. The most obvious is that you're type on a screen to the rest of us.
The other is that you are clearly entirely unable to define terms with any clarity whatsoever, so what you mean by 'trans woman' may be something completely unrelated to what everyone else understands to be a trans woman. Or a transwoman. Or a woman.
So you might as well be saying 'I am not a duck' for the the use or relevance that claim has.
What you are is an inveterate TRA with zero empathy or concern for women who find male bodied threatening. So that's a bit of a problem.

I was at a gynae clinic a while back, and took my DH for moral support because I was feeling very vulnerable and anxious. As I had the procedure (which was very painful, and upsetting since it reminded me of my two traumatic births) I reflected on how it might feel there in that clinic for Women who'd been sexually assaulted, and whether anyone might feel the presence of my DH there in the waiting room was unwelcome.
And he had every right to be there. But still, if anyone had asked him to leave, he would have absolutely got out of there like that. Because it's not all about him, or even all about me.

To be honest I have been at work all and come back to basicly find you all decide to make fun out of my user name like a bunch of children. The name as someone did identify is from the empire strikes back well done proper nerd points for thst as was the name of my partners and mine first cat together choosen by her the huge stars wars fan. Really hope you are all proud of yourselves for that insightful critical thinking

Fwiw, bespin, we didn't all make fun of your username, as you noted, there were quite a number who correctly identified the origin.