I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

[loveyouradvice]

.....it is as simple as that.

I want safe spaces where I know I can relax and know that there will not be male bodies present.... whether it is at the swimming pool, or in the ladies, or in so many situations...

And I find that in this tough world of ours in other situations I feel uplifted by being in women- only groups, nurturing, supporting, caring, sharing....

I know that many transwomen badly want to be women but the reality is that they do not have female bodies - their bodies can be very threatening, especially given so many of them do indeed keep male genitalia.

And more than that.... I feel threatened that I will lose those precious supportive women's spaces, having heard of so many others they have destroyed, whether it is Michfest or lesbian groups or even just women's groups where vulnerable women have ended up fleeing.

Is it ironic that the only sensitive transsexuals we seem to come across - the likes of Miranda Yardley et al - are quite clear that they are men and are keen to understand a "woman's lot".

I would feel far more reassured if there were transpeople who were wanting to be assimilated into a woman's world by understanding and sharing our causes, which never seems to happen and we never hear about - all we hear is of those who are closing down by demanding that trans issues are not excluded.....It feels so strange, I have never heard a woman campaigning for the end of FGM complain that it is not about them but about others....

The sort of men we can trust in women only spaces such as changing rooms are the ones that support them being women only.

This.

Yep. If a male person knows that at least some women really don't want them there and will be made deeply uncomfortable by their presence and proceeds to enter those spaces anyway then they are demonstrating the fact that they don't care whether or not they cause harm to women and are by definition untrustworthy.

This is even more true if those male people spend a significant amount of time talking to women who keep telling them how uncomfortable that behavior makes them and they still keep doing it, as at that point the "well I didn't realize" excuse is clearly unavailable.

@AngryAttackKittens, the original Schrödinger's Rapist essay said that a man who demonstrates contempt for women's boundaries, even the relatively minor boundaries of not being engaged in unwanted conversation when waiting for a bus, immediately red-flags himself as a potential rapist. This makes sense: someone who won't respect your boundaries on the street won't respect your boundaries in bed. The same rationale can be applied to transwomen, and I've dubbed this "Schrödinger's Terf-slayer" upthread. The transwomen I would consider sharing e.g. a women-only sauna with wouldn't even consider entering uninvited, and it's that respect for our boundaries that makes them safe to be around.

When any man doesn't know his limits, and won't take no for an answer and thinks he's entitled to push women's boundaries and impose himself upon her, he is a threat to all women.

the original Schrödinger's Rapist essay said that a man who demonstrates contempt for women's boundaries, even the relatively minor boundaries of not being engaged in unwanted conversation when waiting for a bus, immediately red-flags himself as a potential rapist

Yes.

If you want to risk assess someone, say no to them about something trivial and see how they react. If they don't accept a trivial no, then they are demonstrating something very significant - and those people cannot help themselves. Invite them to show a red flag and they will show it. Every. Single. Time.

It's clear that a nuanced response is needed for a situation like the OP described.

It's something that I've personally wrestled with when it comes to safe spaces for women who are specifically triggered with anxiety when confronted with masculine features.

A few points to consider about this are as follows:

Gender policing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's already heard of some women being accused of being trans when they are not. How does one police this? Is it an honor system or is this something that are required chromosomal or genital check at the door. This is concernig for everyone.

Trans women are at sigtnificant risk of domestic violence from their partners and by people in the street. In a situation like this, it's important that a trans woman would be allowed to feel safe in the same way, but that shouldn't be at the cost of a non-trans woman feeling safe in the space. Hence the problem.

Trans women don't necessarily have masculine features. There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing.

I don't think it would be too tragic to assume some areas in a place like a shelter might have trans woman free areas because of trauma. I have no problem with this at all. I've no want to cause someone anxiety with my presence in such a situation like that. But at the same time I think it's important to recognise that trans women need protections too.

So besides gender policing either at the door or at specified areas, I don't know what else can be done, except set aside private spaces for a single individual only and nobody else? Which is super resource intensive.

I don't have a solid answer to this which i believe helps everyone, Trans women need shelter just as much as non-trans in these situations. I think the distinction is that it's masculine physical characteristics that cause the anxiety and not that a trans woman isn't a woman. (this is my opinion only)

I've been a victim of abuse, more times than i care to remember and sometimes you just need to keep triggering things away. That's something I think everyone can agree with.

Also, on the Bespin thing, I just assumed she was a star wars fan
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bespin

Ghost, presumably you are active in working towards campaigning for funding/resources for trans specific services for those at risk of violence, as you recognise male bodied people in refuges is a circle that cannot be squared?

There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing
Not a problem we had with Lila Perry...

Woman says no, I don't want penis or any kind of male anatomy in my space. For good reasons.

Trans says NATALT gives few examples, ignores "no". Tries to persuade woman to say "yes" by coercing them.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Whatever happened to #metoo and the changes it was supposed to bring around women being heard?

No means no. It is not a negotiation.

I'm not sure how this would be policed at all. While any funding would be gladly had this doesn't help the trans women who right now are desperate and in need of help.

Also, I don't believe it's a circle that can't be squared, just that in cases like this there needs to be an understanding that both groups desperately need help and there's only one service available for said help.

When I was homeless, I was able to crash on a friends couch until I got the chance to get on my feet, but many trans people don't have that luxury just due to prejudice. In my local area I'm frequently asked to provide whatever crisis support I can and so are many other trans people.

The problem is we aren't anywhere near enough and some of us don't get the option of reaching out to the community first to even start building a support network. This on top of the surgeries and healthcare cost we already need, then the workplace discrimination...

The crisis is real and we need often need help right now.

What sort of help are trans women in desperate need of?

A man who knowingly enters a female space knowing he isn't wanted has already behaved like a pervert before he has done anything else.

OP, I understand how you feel. I too am very uncomfortable with males unexpectedly being in what I thought was a female space.

The simple fact is that males, as a class, are a threat to females. And even if I accept that for some reason TW are no threat to women, what about the predatory men pretending to be TW? No one has ever explained to me how to tell the difference.

In a large part trans people need acceptance more than anything else. The slur 'trap' used for trans women is synonymous that we want to deceive men. That added to the trans panic defence means there's very little protection from the men who would beat rape or kill us.

A lot of it looks exactly like the gay panic defence and a lot of the persecution looks exactly like what we saw in the 80's and earlier, even the same bathroom panic issues.

What a lot of that means is that there's not a lot of work, so unemployment help is necessary, healthcare needs to be covered. Especially when the suicide rate for trans people is so high, Mental health needs to be a priority.

There also absolutely needs to be shelters for trans people when things go wrong, be that from domestic violence (where the abuse rates are sky high) or from homelessness in general.

my issue with this is that a lot of trans women make the debate about these spaces solely about them - their requirement for safety, for reassurance often without consideration to how that makes others feel.
Whereas natal women are expected to fully support this with no issue or question even if it’s to the detriment of their own need for reassurance, for safety.
And i’m not saying it as a rash generalisation, obviously not everyone acts in the same
way but you just need to look at some of the posts on this site to see i’m not wrong.

Itsallgoingtobefine

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing.

No there aren't and no it doesn't.

Human beings can immediately intuit sex, regardless of presentation, in almost 100% of cases.

Also, I don't believe it's a circle that can't be squared, just that in cases like this there needs to be an understanding that both groups desperately need help and there's only one service available for said help.

No, there is not only one service. This is massively disingenuous, by this you mean womens spaces?

Trans in sex segregated spaces is not the answer. Far, far more women would lose out, be hurt, be excluded from participation in public life than there are transpeople. You'd be hurting a large % of the 51% for the benefit of the less than 1%. (and not even all of them - Miranda Yardley does not use womens spaces)

Increasingly there are private (individual) and unisex facilities. Lobby for more. Disabled people successfully got their own spaces, stop ignoring women saying "no" and most of the women on this board would actively support trans getting services tailored to their needs.

Unless of course it's not about getting help, but is just about overriding womens consent.

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police.

Same applies surely for trans people not invading female spaces; if you see someone acting threateningly in a male or mixed space then call the cops. Why should women be the armour?

the trans women who right now are desperate and in need of help

Go and help them then!

Here in FWR, we are concentrating on the women and girls who need our help and who are being ignored by virtue-signalling policy makers.

mmmgoats,

I understand, but the truth is most trans women are caught on the thought that "I'm not a man and therefore it doesn't apply to me" and in a perfect world that'd be true. But trauma is a specific and unrelenting beast and space needs to be given to this for the sake of those trauma victims. What shouldn't be the case is that this exclusively closes it off to both groups. Space could be made in the same shelters for both groups, the problem is people from either side see it as all or nothing.

Ok, I'm going to leave this thread now that I've given my point of view. Obviously some will hard disagree with me on any given point and that's fine. I just wanted to state my opinion and make it clear I don't think that it has to be all or nothing either way. There are vastly less trans women than non trans and I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

It’s the “making way for” that bugs me, Ghost. Identify how you please, but no, women do not have to make way for you.

GhostTess - it seems insensitive to flood this thread with multiple posts saying pretty much the same thing. It looks designed to undermine the OP and make her feel more anxious than she does already. Perhaps starting your own thread about possible shared spaces might be a more appropriate contribution?

@iamagreyhoundhearmeroar agreed.