I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

[loveyouradvice]

.....it is as simple as that.

I want safe spaces where I know I can relax and know that there will not be male bodies present.... whether it is at the swimming pool, or in the ladies, or in so many situations...

And I find that in this tough world of ours in other situations I feel uplifted by being in women- only groups, nurturing, supporting, caring, sharing....

I know that many transwomen badly want to be women but the reality is that they do not have female bodies - their bodies can be very threatening, especially given so many of them do indeed keep male genitalia.

And more than that.... I feel threatened that I will lose those precious supportive women's spaces, having heard of so many others they have destroyed, whether it is Michfest or lesbian groups or even just women's groups where vulnerable women have ended up fleeing.

Is it ironic that the only sensitive transsexuals we seem to come across - the likes of Miranda Yardley et al - are quite clear that they are men and are keen to understand a "woman's lot".

I would feel far more reassured if there were transpeople who were wanting to be assimilated into a woman's world by understanding and sharing our causes, which never seems to happen and we never hear about - all we hear is of those who are closing down by demanding that trans issues are not excluded.....It feels so strange, I have never heard a woman campaigning for the end of FGM complain that it is not about them but about others....

Bespin those reports sound like a third space is necessary.

In the past I accepted transwomen using ladies toilets without comment, after seeing the violence of the trans activists I'd actually sooner take my chances in the men's than share a toilet with a transwoman.

Snappity, Bespin, the answer is still no. No, we are not OK with male bodies in women's spaces. No, how that person feels about themselves doesn't make any difference. No, we are not going to accept a redefinition of what "female" means based on Snappity's (possibly deliberate) inability to understand legal language.

Nobody is going to forget the canal comment, Snappity - there's no coming back from that in terms of how you're perceived.

I was admitted to hospital last week as an emergency. I actually turned to my DH and said with genuine anxiety 'I hope there aren't any men on the ward.'

And I would actually have been more concerned if there had turned out to be a lacking empathy for women TW who'd demanded to be on women's ward for their own sake, than a case of a man who obviously felt equally awkward and uncomfortable with the situation we'd been put it.(luckily there were neither).

I think nhs wards is a vastly under discussed area within this.

There is no privacy, you are so vulnerable. I needed help changing within a curtained area which easily had gaps. Women were in pain unable to consciously think about their dignity, women were having to use commodes from behind flimsy curtains, one women had an epileptic fit where her nightie became hitched above her waist.

Women have a right to know that at our most vulnerable we don't have to worry that men will be present.

Have some goddam empathy.

I did end up on a male ward once as an emergency admission with a small number of other women. It was terrifying at night (naked men trying to get to the women terrifying) and kind of awful during the day. I discharged myself as soon as I was physically able to leave against medical advice as I just couldn't cope.

To be fair it was just one naked man trying to get to the women at night when we were trying to sleep, there was a different nearly naked man trying to get to us during the day, he wasn't as scary.

2014 report by the guardian

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/31/sexual-violence-soars-uk-hospitals

I'm sure 99% of men also want single sex wards for their dignity when ill and vulnerable.

So nearly all males and females want single sex wards, but we change this to gender based wards ignoring their genuine needs for safety dignity and privacy.

Doesn't sound very emphathatic.

I'm male, I am not violent or abusive, but accept that because some men are, all men have to adapt behaviour to try and alleviate women's justified fears.
Why can't a transwoman accept that whilst they may not be an actual threat, women cannot be certain. They too must pay a price for how some people with a penis behave.
Women's fears are justified. That doesn't mean a fear of a specific stranger, but of penis owners as a class.

If it means crossing to the other side of a road to make a woman feel safer walking home (despite having a right to walk on the same side), if it means giving her space on a crowded tube so be it.
Why can't trans forego their precious (debatable) right to make biological women feel safe?

I was in a psychiatric unit in my late teens. It was mixed sex. I was sexually harassed and finally raped by a male patient, who would stand at the door to the room I shared with another woman, and masturbate. I was 17 years old, extremely ill, highly medicated and not in any state to protect myself in any way.
If you don't understand the vulnerability of women in that kind of situation when male bodies are present, and all you can talk or think about is how unfair women's boundaries are to you when these events are shared with you, I'm going to have to tell you that any conciliatory feelings I may have had towards you evaporate like morning dew in this heat.

SpareRibFem and FloralBunting, transactivists would read your posts and probably retort that those men were not transwomen, so your stories are not relevant here. But if those appalling experiences don't illustrate why wards need to be segregated by sex, I don't know what could.

The lack of empathy of some (most? I don't know) trans people is staggering. The fact that the NHS sides with them on this issue is utterly baffling.

flourella you're not wrong. Which is, of course, why the controversies about the meaning of language are happening at the same time.
That's one of the reasons the language argument makes me so cross, particularly when objections to the 'new' meaning of woman are dismissed as having no bearing on reality.
Because the stories on this thread are the reason we are fighting to keep clear definitions and boundaries. Those that scorn the protections that language is a tool for, are, on my view, either deeply naive or horribly unpleasant people.

My experience was unpleasant but minor compared to Floralbunting's

The trouble is however loudly Transwoman shout that Transwomen are Women the very act of shouting this at us over and over again and dismissing our concerns and boundaries as irrelevant reminds us of male violence and does not convince us and reminds us that women in general do not behave like that. So if they behave like violent entitled men in some ways why do they think we'll believe they won't behave like violent entitled men in others.

I would very much like to be more direct than this but I'm playing by the rules

I have been in hospital for major surgery twice, which meant, i could not even turn myself over in bed, or urinate on my own. Nurses had to change my sanitary towels, when I got my period. etc
I can not imagine how vulnerable I would have felt if the ward was not single sex. I realise discussing menstruation is trans exclusionary, however its a fact that most women of child bearing age have to deal with.

Many many men are like TornFromTheInside and show empathy when we explain why we're scared and adjust their behaviour even as they know they personally are not a threat. The lack of empathy from the trans community is very disturbing.

TornFromTheInside thank you for adding your voice to the debate, your comments and actions are much appreciated.

I don't care if any males on women's ward's identify as TW or men.

I just want to know that when ever I go into hospital there will not be any biological males on my ward.

You can't have empathy for things you don't believe are real. The activist comm unities don't believe women are real people, they think we're costumes and feelings. Just objects. So given that, the lack of empathy is unsurprising really.

ISaySteadyOn astute , explains the dehumanising reduction of women to body parts.

The Transcrime and Terfisaslur websites collate ample evidence of this. I've gone from seeing transwomen on the train as brave for being out in public to wondering if they are Schrödinger's Terf Slayer[1]. Unsurprisingly, my willingness to share women's spaces with them has disappeared

This is me too. When you've seen literally hundreds of members of a group that claims to be the most vulnerable in society threatening to kick women's heads in your brain recalibrates the risk assessment a bit.

Goodness - yes and yes to both the points above HaXXor and AngryAttackKittens

It takes mere seconds to go on Twitter and find someone who puts themselves under the trans umbrella spouting contempt for women, in a typically recognisable aggressive male manner.

I've also had interactions with men or witnessed men who seem all sweetness and smiles on the surface and been amazed to watch their body language and delivery of speech quickly switch when they've been angered. That's actually what I am most wary of. I can more easily avoid men who parade their aggression openly, but knowing that there are some, or many men who manage to keep it bottled up and put on a charade of congeniality until something makes them snap, makes me wary of men who are strangers to me.

I've now no reason to think differently about people who identify as transwomen. It's not even conscious. It's learnt over all the years I have been alive. Of course some females can be like that but I don't also fear them physically.

The same biological differences that give us a penis and more muscular bodies are the very same that predispose us to aggression. Whilst many men manage to control it, some don't. Some can lose control with little or no prior warning, some can lose it over incredibly inane things, and some suffer from both of these issues. A woman cannot know (nor can another man for that matter).

It reminds me of dog owners who swear their animal would never bite. Most won't, some will, and no matter how assured you are, it's always a possibility that you misjudged or that something changes their temperament.

Sadly, it is the nature of the beast. We have plenty of desirable attributes and some highly undesirable ones that are not suited for peaceful coexistence amongst each other.

As long as our internal biology remains male, we are a potent instrument. Changing our physical presentation to something feminine and seemingly less volatile does not change what we are.

Transwomen, if reading this makes your blood boil, then you're already the loaded gun that women fear.
The same loaded gun that usually wants to protect and care for a woman is also the same loaded gun that can kill them.

We need to find a solution that protects transwomen, but it cannot be at the risk of all biological women.

And if you feel like punching me for what I've said, I stand a much less chance of defending myself against you than I do against a biological woman. You know why.

Fantastic post Torn. It sums up my genuine FEAR of violence, rather than simply a fear of the unknown, as activists would have it.

Well said, Tom.

Nailed it Tom.

Might be time to increase your font size ladies!

;-)

You’re a gem, Torn, thank you.

One of the things that concerns me is that believing oneself to be a woman seems to actively impede the kind of empathy that TornFromTheInside is showing in his comment, in that acknowledging that women feel that uncertainty around male adults and that that uncertainty still applies to you even if you don't see yourself as a man actively conflicts with the individual's belief that they are a woman on some metaphysical level and should be seen as such by others.