I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

[loveyouradvice]

.....it is as simple as that.

I want safe spaces where I know I can relax and know that there will not be male bodies present.... whether it is at the swimming pool, or in the ladies, or in so many situations...

And I find that in this tough world of ours in other situations I feel uplifted by being in women- only groups, nurturing, supporting, caring, sharing....

I know that many transwomen badly want to be women but the reality is that they do not have female bodies - their bodies can be very threatening, especially given so many of them do indeed keep male genitalia.

And more than that.... I feel threatened that I will lose those precious supportive women's spaces, having heard of so many others they have destroyed, whether it is Michfest or lesbian groups or even just women's groups where vulnerable women have ended up fleeing.

Is it ironic that the only sensitive transsexuals we seem to come across - the likes of Miranda Yardley et al - are quite clear that they are men and are keen to understand a "woman's lot".

I would feel far more reassured if there were transpeople who were wanting to be assimilated into a woman's world by understanding and sharing our causes, which never seems to happen and we never hear about - all we hear is of those who are closing down by demanding that trans issues are not excluded.....It feels so strange, I have never heard a woman campaigning for the end of FGM complain that it is not about them but about others....

I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

See, I find appeals to female socialisation to be red flags with respect to understanding and respecting the boundaries of others.

I failed female socialisation, by the way.

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

If that's the case, there's no point trans being in womens spaces because a) they can equally report threatening behaviour and b) violent men will just follow them into womens spaces, nothings stopping them after all. Indeed, trans in womens spaces might make threats or violence more likely if violent men object to their teenage daughter having to share with a penis / male anatomy.

But I do disagree there is nothing stopping men in womens spaces: If a woman complains now she is not risking being charged with hate crime. Women still have the ability to say no in the uk. Also, decent men, indeed decent people, don't go where they make people uncomfortable. And decent people still step in when they see men acting aggressively to women and children. If they could be prosecuted for a hate crime or told doing that is against the law many will no longer do that.

Why do we still have sex segregated services if it doesn't achieve anything and doesn't deter anyone?

I've read a few of these threads recently.

I think the changing room element is a bit of a red herring. My local pool has mixed facilities with cubicles. I would not expect anyone to be wandering about waving body parts around in there regardless of self identity. It's common courtesy. I do however understand why some women would want women only changing rooms. This must be respected if it's wanted, by women. Women are not to become the police of these areas. We already have to police our bodies as it is against some men.

What I do take exception to is the refuge, rape crises and other genuinely women only safe spaces, prisons etc. These are women only for very very good reasons. Women have had to fight for these services and they are underfunded as it is. I have sympathy with trans people needing similar services. But this must not be at the expense of women and their needs.

The best option is a third space rather than forcing women to share their hard won spaces.

Ah Tells said it more succinctly while I was typing. But it does bear repeating after all. The argument is that if womens spaces are made unisex by allowing trans people in, then any woman who feels threatened can just report it. So why can't transpeople just report any threatening behaviour in mens spaces?

It's the old one rule for XY, a different rule involving not taking no for an answer for XX

A year ago I would have supported access to women’s spaces and actually in is in place anyway under current law with GRC. With sex based exemptions when needed.

Now, never, it is clear that activists have a very misogynistic agend that involves demanding validation from women for their sense of identity.

The gaslighting of women, appropriation of victim and reality the final nail in the coffin was the homophobia. When gay friends are abused and called transphobic for simply having a different opinion.
Fuck it I’m done.

As for the treatment of lesbians, it just beggars belief.

Trying to manipulate and bully others into validating your belief about yourself is a hopeless and powerless route to try and gain self esteem. You can not control others, or what they think of you. Yes you can coerce them into saying what you want to hear. But self esteem and self acceptance can only come from within.

BTW re young women, most are totally unable to speak out about this and through a false smile will acquiesce. They are terrified of being ostricised.

It’s taken me years to stop objectifying myself. Not because I’m a bad feminist, but because the message was so deep, I couldn’t even see it myself.

Young women who have not had the courage to speak out, will when they get older. It can take a long time for women to really find their own voice and run the risk of “ not being nice and possibly hurting others feelings.

This whole agenda is based around the lie of inclusion, which is why it is so hard for anyone to speak out.
Actually it’s about exclusion and trampling all over others rights.

Women already are giving up hard earned places in politics to trans women. This equals exclusion.

I totally support 3 spaces and trans lists in politics, but not if it means women loosing out.

I am intrigued how those who feel sex-specific spaces cannot include trans people feel a separate space would work? There are two sexes of trans people, so that's at least two more spaces. How many refuges will afford that?

Then how do you decide which trans person belongs in which space because, if you say that everyone has a right to a single sex space, that includes trans people too? If you can't sort that out, then that is discrimination against trans people and unlawful because they are denied the single sex space you have decided must be provided. If you can sort it out then trans people don't need to separated so the separation is unlawful.

GhostTess saying 'there's no point saying no to us because you can't stop us' is not a valid argument. With each subsequent post you make on this thread you have continued to demonstarte you do not respect women's boundaries.

Fair point @snappity

I don't know how to answer that. I agree then two safe spaces. Whether that's realistic? Probably not.

It's a very hard question to solve. The founding principle has to be that womens spaces are protected. How you balance that with the requirements of others is for someone brighter than me to be able to solve. I don't know how to answer it. Chocolate teapot, appreciated.

Single sex, snappity. There are two sexes, not four.

No, transpeople can still use the sex segregated space they biologically belong to. Or the unisex / trans only. If the two types of trans don't even want to share with each other then of course that means you totally get the GC argument and why the hell should women budge up? But of course you could campaign for two more spaces, no one is stopping you.

Snappity transmen do not scare us

Transwomen who are vile about and to women who have suffered from female specific medical conditions and do not respect women's boundaries on the other hand...

'I think the changing room element is a bit of a red herring. My local pool has mixed facilities with cubicles. I would not expect anyone to be wandering about waving body parts around in there regardless of self identity'

That's very nice for you but it is absolutely not a red herring at my local pool which is single sex, mainly communal though poky with only 4 cubicles (big gaps above and below partitions). You have to change in VERY close proximity!
(And the second nearest pool, about 10 miles away, is very run down and though it does have cubicles the curtains don't go all the way across, there's about a 6 inch gap. Having been peeping tommed in a shop changing room once which was really far more scary and upsetting than you might think, I probably wouldn't swim if there was a risk of pervy blokes exploiting self id to get in there.)
And, you know, nobody is going to pay to build us a new set of changing rooms just because in theory the problem is easily fixed.

@ countess

I understand that. My pool has doors on the cubicles.

I don't think I would let anyone stop me swimming. But that's not to invalidate your experiences or feelings. I do agree with alot of the other post by msbeee which is right about women not challenging things and acquiescing, and for good reasons, again. I suppose my point was that going swimming is a revealing activity in terms of clothing and as such I have seen things I would prefer not to by accident. I myself have inadvertently flashed people coming off water slides on holiday. It's the context of it. A rape crises centre is not up for debate in my view. That's not a space to be shared with men. A swimming pool is a bit different.

The world isn't ideal. I wish it were.

Single sex facilities should mean just that - single biological sex. We will need male female and unisex.

If trans men don't want to change with females even though they are female then they could use the unisex facilities.

Single sex facilities does mean just that. Snappity is more than a little confused, I think; imagining all four sexes need to be accommodated...

No matter what, I cannot view Self-ID as being the same as a Transwoman. Which doesn't mean they've no right to exist in their beliefs, just that I don't want to be told they are women the same as me.

No intention of transitioning, just shouting about wanting to be in womens' spaces and how we should move over? Looking like men, male organs intact? Why aren't they fighting for their own rights instead of aiming to take over and trample on other people's?

This whole thing has been cleverly trivialised into us little women being worried about penis in womens' spaces. Also quite clever is the way they use 'Trans" as an all-encompassing term when they know very well Self-ID is mostly the concern.

But they won't say that. The same as they sidestep Transwomen who are also against Self-ID. Conveniently disregard TRAs physical violence and intimidation towards women. Make clear they think lesbians "have to" accept lady-penis.

Its male born privilege driving this whole thing.

I don't blame a woman fleeing domestic violence not wanting to face dealing with male Women's Refuge staff - there've already been a few issues with this, haven't there? Same with Self-IDs in womens' prisons and what's gone on with that.. & yes what about women who don't want a penis in communal changing areas with them? There could be a myriad of reasons who is anybody to say they don't matter?

Self-IDs need their own spaces and that's what they should be campaigning for. The fact they are not, speaks volumes to me.

@GhostTess, the reason why natal women who've been abused by men are nervous of what you describe as "masculine features" is because we have a fear of males as a class. This is rational when you consider the rate of male violent offending versus the rate of female violent offending. That transwomen also fear male violence is rational, because males are violent against other males, especially those who don't comply with expectations of "manhood". That transwomen, and for that matter transmen (e.g. Teena Brandon/Brandon Teena (delete as applicable)) need protection from male violence is clear. But, without a clear way to distinguish between real transwomen and fakers trying to gain access to vulnerable women for nefarious purposes, we need to keep female spaces for females.

I understand that transfolk are in trouble right now, but this is not the responsibility of women's shelters to solve. Back in the seventies, my mum was door-to-door collecting for a women's DV refuge, to get it started up, and men and women alike would answer the door and tell her that the battered wives didn't deserve help because it was their fault. The women who were in DV hell back then had to wait whilst women like my mum raised funds, there wasn't a plan B for them even though they were in mortal danger. I'm not willing to compromise the male-free safety of what my mum helped to build because the transwomen working in highly-paid IT jobs don't want to open their wallets, especially not when the shelters that have been granted some state money in the past are now losing it because of cuts and so can really not afford the added complication and expense of trying to accommodate a transwomen without causing stress to natal women. You should lobby your own community for help, not the women's liberation movement, especially when women's services are so under threat right now. I'm reminded here of a petition on the Number 10 website calling for the Govt to put posters in men's loos about DV and rape, when women go in and just put Rape Crisis stickers up without asking for help or permission. Helping male abuse victims is a laudable aim but the petition wasn't needed for something that can be done by anyone with a computer and a label printer. In any case, the oppression transfolk face is distinct from that which natal women face: we face misogyny and reproductive oppression (e.g. forced pregnancy), you face transphobia, they are different things. Targeted support for transfolk won't work for natal women and vice-versa.

Re your reply to Itsallgoingtobefine:

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

Here's my Swiss Cheese Model explainer for how we keep men from raping women in the loos.

My priority is retaining single sex spaces for women.

I wouldn't dream of blocking any other group's campaigning for designated spaces for their own groups, if they feel they need them. If trans people want to campaign for extra facilities if they do not wish to use the spaces appropriate for their biological sex - all fine by me and I'll support from afar. Go for it. Not my concern.

There are vastly less trans women than non trans and I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

Why not go onto a male forum and tell them to make way by not being so unpleasant maybe? Then you wouldn't have to force women to 'make way'. You could just sit on your own bench rather than forcing women to budge up and fall off the other end of theirs.

Here comes Snappity with the old "well it's a bit difficult to organise spaces for trans people, so women just budge up".

Female bodied trans people are welcome in women's spaces, as far as I'm concerned (and no, I don't mind if they have beards, as long as they don't have fully functioning penises). I don't care where trans people with penises go - if they don't feel safe in men's spaces, campaign to have separate spaces or campaign to make male spaces safer.

But either way, the onus shouldn't be on women to organise spaces for people who are not women.

One of the reasons why we have sex segregated spaces is to protect women from male violence, voyerism etc.

We all know that not all men are like that (NAMALT). Transwomen are male and apparently retain the same pattern of offending as all other males. We know, by extension that not all transwomen are like that (NATWALT).

The fact is that a transwoman, especially an intact transwoman, remains the same level as threat to women as any other male.

By allowing transwomen into women's sex segregated spaces we are increasing the risk to women in those spaces. Having self-id will increase this risk as it will be easier for males with nefarious purposes to access women only spaces with little or no challenge.

Why should women put up with that?

Conversely, transwomen want to access women's sex segregated spaces because they feel safer, and apparently feel they are entitled because they 'are women'. The problem apparently being that they can't use sex segregated spaces of their sex because they may be attacked by other males, and they believe they 'are women', so why shouldn't they use women's spaces?

I don't think there is a solution that will appease both sides unfortunately.

The middle ground would be to have third spaces for transfolk. This would mean that the risk for women wouldn't increase as males still wouldn't have access to their safe spaces, and the risk to transfolk would decrease as they wouldn't have to share with other males who may wish them harm.

As for policing this, I guess the only way would be to continue with the honour based system, where males could be ejected from a woman's sex segregated space if women within that space felt uncomfortable.

If trans men don't want to change with females even though they are female then they could use the unisex facilities.

So that's the core isn't it? This is about single sex spaces for everyone else but not for trans people and definitely not for trans women who are legally female but still have a penis. Try that and the service provider will be straight to court because if they believe that single sex spaces are essential then denying that right to trans people is discrimination and outside all of the exemptions.

So, so dim...

As if all this should be for women to think about anyway🙄

It's easy enough to campaign on your own behalf. Nobody's stopping Self-IDs, we live in a democracy in which they have much more privilege than some.

I hope women only spaces are maintained. Not least to have some peace from all this and not be told we are supposed to think about men's needs 24/7

There are only 2 sexes. Ergo, you only need 2 types of sex space. If transgender people don't want to use their sex space, find A solution.

transgender people still have a sex that is biologically determined. It's just not the one that matches their identity. I understood that to be the definition.

So transpeople are not being denied access to any sex space. They are just being asked to understand that sex isn't identity. Which is part of the definition of being trans so they should be able to understand it.

Today, gender identity facilities are not provided. We would clearly need at least 5 different types of gender identity facility..the fifth for the women who have no gender identity.